Origin of this Yataghan? (With pictures!)

kwiatek · 30th November 2019, 12:06 AM

This probably comes too late, but all the marks posted here say “Mustafa”

Kubur · 30th November 2019, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwiatek

This probably comes too late, but all the marks posted here say “Mustafa”

Very nice Greek name...

ariel · 30th November 2019, 06:47 AM

Ottoman Yataghans were assembled from mass-produced blades coming largely from Anatolia and Balkans ( Bosnia, mainly). Wherever they landed, their further fate was to fall into the hands of a local master who added the rest according to his local customs, tastes and traditions. This step defined the final product. That was the similar to the fate of other trade blades, such as Genoese, Styrian or generic Indian. Depending on the point of their final destination, they could be converted into Moroccan nimchas, Caucasian shashkas, Afghani pulwars, Mughals, Rajputs etc.

What is still original here is the blade ( generic “ Ottoman”) but a typical Greek/ Cretan crenellated niello silver tunkou/ Habaki- like appliqué at the root of the blade. That is all we have and all we can use in determining the ethnic origin of the final product.

How do we interpret it depends on our discretion. We can take the “path of the least resistance” that was used by Gozde Yasar, for whom everything yataghanish was “Ottoman, period”, or try and discern local decorative peculiarities. The latter would point toward Crete.

Finally, we are dealing not with certainties, but with probabilities. In a humongous and multiethnic Ottoman Empire nothing prevented a master of one ethnicity from using decorative technique of other people. That was a “ dime a dozen” approach in Imperial Russia with its multiethnic workshops geographically located in Tiflis and Vladikavkaz and spitting out thousands of “Caucasian” shashkas and kindjals of whatever ethnic pattern sold better at that moment or even creation of “Caucasian” - looking examples in St. Peterburg or Ukraine.

Perhaps the most accurate definition of that yataghan would be “ Ottoman in a Cretan style”.

TVV · 30th November 2019, 04:16 PM

If we classify swords and daggers according to the blades, then all the swords with triple fullered Solingen 19th century blades from the Sahel are German. Obviously, not a very good approach, and as has been discussed here the mounts are generally a much better indicator on where a weapon was used.

Kubur · 30th November 2019, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

If we classify swords and daggers according to the blades, then all the swords with triple fullered Solingen 19th century blades from the Sahel are German. Obviously, not a very good approach, and as has been discussed here the mounts are generally a much better indicator on where a weapon was used.

I totaly agree with you
200%
The problem is that for you silver + niello = Greek
when in fact it is Turkish Ottoman
But i won't try to change your mind...

Kubur · 30th November 2019, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

I totaly agree with you
200%
The problem is that for you silver + niello = Greek
when in fact it is Turkish Ottoman
But i won't try to change your mind...

To be really honest with you if i refer to the yataghan posted at the very begining, i have to admit that it could be Greek also because very little survived from the original hilt... I still believe that some forum members have some problem to identify Turkish weapons, see post
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24813

ariel · 30th November 2019, 08:01 PM

Well, if you think that all things Ottoman are Turkish, that would greatly simplify your provenancing :-)

gp · 5th May 2020, 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Very nice Greek name...

well quite some people in the Balkans during the Ottoman times converted to the new religion and hence took over the names accordingly.

Didn't that happen as well when Celts, Anglosaxons, Germanic, Baltic and Scandinavion regions and peoples were converted as well...?

So from a geographic point of view the name discussed might indeed be from an inhabitant of Greece.
Let's not forget after the Balkan Wars of 1911-1913 a lot of resettlement took place in quite some countries in South East Europe and with this quite some names which were present for four to six centuries.

Quite some edged weapons from Bosnia have the name Hassan on it, be it either the owner or maker's name....

And back on topic: the stamps / marks on the picture in cyrillic are the names Omar, Faruk, Rabomal Hasan, Rabomal Halu, Osman and Alu ( Alu being probably an elative case of Ali )

Kubur · 16th May 2020, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gp

well quite some people in the Balkans during the Ottoman times converted to the new religion and hence took over the names accordingly.

Hi
The problem was not about the blade origin or the blade maker but about the silver niello fittings that some members attribute to Greeks without any proof. And even maybe to Christian orthodox Greeks! Glups...
Of course we all know that Balkans were Ottoman provinces and partly Muslim.
We need more forum members from Turkey to balance a bit the knowledge from the Balkans to Turkey... And never forget that the Balkans were amongst the first provinces of the Ottoman empire so Greek means nothing before the Greek uprising...

TVV · 17th May 2020, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi
The problem was not about the blade origin or the blade maker but about the silver niello fittings that some members attribute to Greeks without any proof. And even maybe to Christian orthodox Greeks! Glups...
Of course we all know that Balkans were Ottoman provinces and partly Muslim.
We need more forum members from Turkey to balance a bit the knowledge from the Balkans to Turkey... And never forget that the Balkans were amongst the first provinces of the Ottoman empire so Greek means nothing before the Greek uprising...

Maybe you need a Turkish forum, where the other members will agree with labeling everything from the Atlantic to the Pacific as Ottoman.

Kubur · 17th May 2020, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Maybe you need a Turkish forum, where the other members will agree with labeling everything from the Atlantic to the Pacific as Ottoman.

This is the problem Ottoman is not Turkish;
and Turkish is not Ottoman, it's more complicated...
If the Balkans are from the Atlantic to the Pacific , then you are perfectly right.

Forget about the Greeks: if you talk about an "epirus style" for some daggers, pistols and swords then I'll agree.
But again it will depend of what you put under this tag.

ariel · 17th May 2020, 02:11 PM

By the way, in Russian, where a good chunk of its vocabulary is of Turkish ( not necessarily Ottoman, but much earlier, back to the Mongolian invasion) the word Sarai ( Сарай) designates not a castle but just a shed, like garden shed. Also, in a slightly modified meaning , “Sarai” is an unkempt, dirty and disorganized living space.

The “Ottoman” origin of all Yataghans in Russian literature was due to the inability of Soviet weapon historians ( such as Astvatsaturian) to visit foreign museums and to talk to foreign colleagues, especially in Yugoslavia: Tito was regarded as a traitor to the great Lenin-Stalin orthodoxy. Greece, after suppression of the communist putsch, was also out of bounds. And, since Bulgaria was “liberated” from the Ottomans by the Russian armies in the 19 century and every “non- Slavic” feature was regarded as Turkish. Thus, Astvatsaturian’s attribution of Ottoman weapons was grossly misinformed and fallacious. Not her fault: the realities of the closed and politicized nature of Communist regime(s).

Relatively recent Turkish books, such as the one by Gozde Yasar, perpetuate this narrow view: each and every yataghan there is labeled as Ottoman, with the unspoken implication of being Turkish. No attempt was made to pinpoint decorative features specific to their non-Anatolian origin.

Works of Marija Sercer from Zagreb were largely unknown and were not even cited in the above books. Only from a recent book by Dora Boskovic did we learn about Sercer’s major contributions.
First time I heard of Bulgarian weapon centers was from the Daskalov’s book.
And, finally, the role of Balkan centers was brought to the full view by Elgood.
All of them were published and widely available only after collapse of the Soviet Union and redrawing of the maps.

Sadly, politics and nationalism play major and destructive role in historical studies.

cyten · 8th June 2020, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gp

And back on topic: the stamps / marks on the picture in cyrillic are the names Omar, Faruk, Rabomal Hasan, Rabomal Halu, Osman and Alu ( Alu being probably an elative case of Ali )

just a small clarification, It is Omar, Khalil, Rabotal Hasan, Rabotal Khalil, Osman, and Ali

30th November 2019, 12:06 AM	#1
kwiatek Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 153	This probably comes too late, but all the marks posted here say “Mustafa”

30th November 2019, 06:47 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ottoman Yataghans were assembled from mass-produced blades coming largely from Anatolia and Balkans ( Bosnia, mainly). Wherever they landed, their further fate was to fall into the hands of a local master who added the rest according to his local customs, tastes and traditions. This step defined the final product. That was the similar to the fate of other trade blades, such as Genoese, Styrian or generic Indian. Depending on the point of their final destination, they could be converted into Moroccan nimchas, Caucasian shashkas, Afghani pulwars, Mughals, Rajputs etc. What is still original here is the blade ( generic “ Ottoman”) but a typical Greek/ Cretan crenellated niello silver tunkou/ Habaki- like appliqué at the root of the blade. That is all we have and all we can use in determining the ethnic origin of the final product. How do we interpret it depends on our discretion. We can take the “path of the least resistance” that was used by Gozde Yasar, for whom everything yataghanish was “Ottoman, period”, or try and discern local decorative peculiarities. The latter would point toward Crete. Finally, we are dealing not with certainties, but with probabilities. In a humongous and multiethnic Ottoman Empire nothing prevented a master of one ethnicity from using decorative technique of other people. That was a “ dime a dozen” approach in Imperial Russia with its multiethnic workshops geographically located in Tiflis and Vladikavkaz and spitting out thousands of “Caucasian” shashkas and kindjals of whatever ethnic pattern sold better at that moment or even creation of “Caucasian” - looking examples in St. Peterburg or Ukraine. Perhaps the most accurate definition of that yataghan would be “ Ottoman in a Cretan style”.

30th November 2019, 04:16 PM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	If we classify swords and daggers according to the blades, then all the swords with triple fullered Solingen 19th century blades from the Sahel are German. Obviously, not a very good approach, and as has been discussed here the mounts are generally a much better indicator on where a weapon was used.

30th November 2019, 08:01 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well, if you think that all things Ottoman are Turkish, that would greatly simplify your provenancing :-)

17th May 2020, 02:11 PM	#12
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	By the way, in Russian, where a good chunk of its vocabulary is of Turkish ( not necessarily Ottoman, but much earlier, back to the Mongolian invasion) the word Sarai ( Сарай) designates not a castle but just a shed, like garden shed. Also, in a slightly modified meaning , “Sarai” is an unkempt, dirty and disorganized living space. The “Ottoman” origin of all Yataghans in Russian literature was due to the inability of Soviet weapon historians ( such as Astvatsaturian) to visit foreign museums and to talk to foreign colleagues, especially in Yugoslavia: Tito was regarded as a traitor to the great Lenin-Stalin orthodoxy. Greece, after suppression of the communist putsch, was also out of bounds. And, since Bulgaria was “liberated” from the Ottomans by the Russian armies in the 19 century and every “non- Slavic” feature was regarded as Turkish. Thus, Astvatsaturian’s attribution of Ottoman weapons was grossly misinformed and fallacious. Not her fault: the realities of the closed and politicized nature of Communist regime(s). Relatively recent Turkish books, such as the one by Gozde Yasar, perpetuate this narrow view: each and every yataghan there is labeled as Ottoman, with the unspoken implication of being Turkish. No attempt was made to pinpoint decorative features specific to their non-Anatolian origin. Works of Marija Sercer from Zagreb were largely unknown and were not even cited in the above books. Only from a recent book by Dora Boskovic did we learn about Sercer’s major contributions. First time I heard of Bulgarian weapon centers was from the Daskalov’s book. And, finally, the role of Balkan centers was brought to the full view by Elgood. All of them were published and widely available only after collapse of the Soviet Union and redrawing of the maps. Sadly, politics and nationalism play major and destructive role in historical studies.