North American Indian knife

BAW · 12th November 2019, 09:58 PM

As to the age of this knife & scabbard, it is sometimes difficult to tell a 20th or 21st century copy from a 19th century original if the proper techniques of hand manufacture are used. The materials used can be helpful, however. The tang of the blade seems to be inserted into the hollow bone of the handle and has no rivet or other means of fastening it. What holds it in? If you look down the blade towards the handle, can you see into the hollow part of the bone? If you see evidence of the hollow having been filled with epoxy and the tang having been pushed into it, it indicates late manufacture. As Battara indicates, the technique of beading is called "lazy stitch" and is the easiest and fastest way to cover an area with beadwork. It is also quite fragile and was not the preferred method of beading an object which was to be subjected to hard use. Can you tell what kind of thread the beads are strung on? An older 19th century example might use animal sinew, and later 19th century examples might use cotton thread. Many, perhaps most modern makers of Indian style beadwork use dental floss.

Cthulhu · 3rd December 2019, 12:06 AM

Is this comfortable to hold? The teeth in the handle are very attractive, but I wonder how practical they are, given the various other bones that presumably are available if you have a bear jaw at your disposal. Of course practicality doesn't mean everything, but it does make me wonder.

Verifying if the beads are glass or something else might be helpful for dating this.

Also looking at the punched holes in the sheath in one of your photos, it looks like there's leather sticking out as an artifact of the punching, which I would think would be worn off if this item had seen much use.

Please take as a caveat that I know literally nothing about Native American tools.

kronckew · 3rd December 2019, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BAW

... The tang of the blade seems to be inserted into the hollow bone of the handle and has no rivet or other means of fastening it. What holds it in? If you look down the blade towards the handle, can you see into the hollow part of the bone? If you see evidence of the hollow having been filled with epoxy and the tang having been pushed into it, it indicates late manufacture. ...

Native Americans were capable of using tree resins and water resistant glues.

Martin Lubojacky · 3rd December 2019, 11:31 AM

Kronckew, Cthulhu and BAW, Thank you for your additional remarks. And welcome to the forum, BAW.

The knife is not with me now and I´ll see it ca in half a year, again. Nevertheless, what I remember: the small beads on the shetah are made of glass. The bigger bead (with flower ?) on the pendant is made of glass and is very well worn. Other beads on the pendant are made of wood. Back side of the sheath is not worn (if I compare with African knives). The handle is, I would say, nearly absolutely ergonometric and was used. The teeth don´t matter, just opposite. The blade has tongue, it fell out and I glued it back (there is a hole in the handle). The sewing material is a mystery for me - I was not able to recognize, if it was some kind of a flat plastic thread or natural sinew, it is somehow "dry".

Pukka Bundook · 3rd December 2019, 02:25 PM

It looks an interesting and attractive knife, Martin.

The handle on this appears to be a bear jaw-bone, and there was some made this way originally.
The blade looks more modern than I would expect for an original artefact, as does the sinew or whatever holding the rawhide sheath together.
Things like the stitching and the holes normally get rubbed and filled with dirt/grease and polished a bit with wear and carrying.
Holes were normally made with an awl, rather than being punched out.
I think (Think) it may be a nicely made more recent piece.

Thank you for showing it! We don't see many N American pieces here!

All the best,
Richard.

PS,

This reminds me of a knife my daughter has;
It was found at a buffalo jump in southern Alberta. Will take photos and post it on a new thread.

12th November 2019, 09:58 PM	#1
BAW Member Join Date: Nov 2019 Posts: 6	North American Indian Knife As to the age of this knife & scabbard, it is sometimes difficult to tell a 20th or 21st century copy from a 19th century original if the proper techniques of hand manufacture are used. The materials used can be helpful, however. The tang of the blade seems to be inserted into the hollow bone of the handle and has no rivet or other means of fastening it. What holds it in? If you look down the blade towards the handle, can you see into the hollow part of the bone? If you see evidence of the hollow having been filled with epoxy and the tang having been pushed into it, it indicates late manufacture. As Battara indicates, the technique of beading is called "lazy stitch" and is the easiest and fastest way to cover an area with beadwork. It is also quite fragile and was not the preferred method of beading an object which was to be subjected to hard use. Can you tell what kind of thread the beads are strung on? An older 19th century example might use animal sinew, and later 19th century examples might use cotton thread. Many, perhaps most modern makers of Indian style beadwork use dental floss.

3rd December 2019, 12:06 AM	#2
Cthulhu Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Central Valley, California Posts: 46	Is this comfortable to hold? The teeth in the handle are very attractive, but I wonder how practical they are, given the various other bones that presumably are available if you have a bear jaw at your disposal. Of course practicality doesn't mean everything, but it does make me wonder. Verifying if the beads are glass or something else might be helpful for dating this. Also looking at the punched holes in the sheath in one of your photos, it looks like there's leather sticking out as an artifact of the punching, which I would think would be worn off if this item had seen much use. Please take as a caveat that I know literally nothing about Native American tools.

3rd December 2019, 11:31 AM	#4
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	Kronckew, Cthulhu and BAW, Thank you for your additional remarks. And welcome to the forum, BAW. The knife is not with me now and I´ll see it ca in half a year, again. Nevertheless, what I remember: the small beads on the shetah are made of glass. The bigger bead (with flower ?) on the pendant is made of glass and is very well worn. Other beads on the pendant are made of wood. Back side of the sheath is not worn (if I compare with African knives). The handle is, I would say, nearly absolutely ergonometric and was used. The teeth don´t matter, just opposite. The blade has tongue, it fell out and I glued it back (there is a hole in the handle). The sewing material is a mystery for me - I was not able to recognize, if it was some kind of a flat plastic thread or natural sinew, it is somehow "dry".

3rd December 2019, 02:25 PM	#5
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	It looks an interesting and attractive knife, Martin. The handle on this appears to be a bear jaw-bone, and there was some made this way originally. The blade looks more modern than I would expect for an original artefact, as does the sinew or whatever holding the rawhide sheath together. Things like the stitching and the holes normally get rubbed and filled with dirt/grease and polished a bit with wear and carrying. Holes were normally made with an awl, rather than being punched out. I think (Think) it may be a nicely made more recent piece. Thank you for showing it! We don't see many N American pieces here! All the best, Richard. PS, This reminds me of a knife my daughter has; It was found at a buffalo jump in southern Alberta. Will take photos and post it on a new thread.