Napoleonic Period British Artillery Short Sword Initials

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Will M

The lettering could have been done somewhat hastily in the field when many regiments were together and needed ownership markings on their arms.
Anyone with minimum skills could be drafted to help mark many weapons.

Quite a pertinent approach, Will.

[Jim McDougall]

Indeed, very well noted Will! But now that the linguistic possibilities of the letters/numerals have been thoroughly examined and discussed, what is the outcome for what these crudely scribed markings tell us?

So we know it is a French pattern, and the Mexicans received many artillery pieces from the French. Mexican general Santa Anna was obsessed with Napoleon and fashioned his army accordingly with uniforms either acquired from French or designed after them.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, again I will suggest, this sidearm may well have been acquired along with stores of materials from the French in post Napoleonic period, and as the markings' character corresponds to those used in Spanish (and Mexican) context this seems a viable deduction.

I hope this suggestion might be noticed and considered now that the most thorough examination of the markings has well carried support for this idea.
Thank you.

[Jim McDougall]

To further my idea that this apparent French 'naval' pattern artillery sword (as per Nuemann, 1973) of later 18th c. MAY well have found use in Mexican (or Spanish colonial) use in the post Napoleonic period, I submit the following:

A page from a French reference illustrating the zoomorphic pommels and styling of hilts on some brass French patterns in the period.

A page from Juan Calvo, "Machetes del Ejercito de Ultramar en Cuba y Puerto Rico", 2006.

Note the lion head examples and the manner of markings (No 362) etc.
While these are mid 19th c. Caribbean examples, the conventions in use as well in the Mexican army are apparent. In my notes from discussions with a colleague who has excavated Mexican battlefields extensively some years ago he described these marking methods.

The small 'o' in superscript represents 'nd' as in 2nd.
The small 'o' with dot beneath represents 'th', as in 7th.

After the Mexican Revolution of 1821, many regiments were named for heroes of those campaigns, by about 1839, the numbering styles were reinstituted.

The R letter typically referred to zapadores (sappers), R.Zapado
The letter Y meant minaderos (miners) Y minad
Rl (capital R hyperscript capital L) for Cuerpo de Ingenieros (Real Corps of Engineers).

These were rather elite units in the Mexican Army as they were highly specialized contrary to the rank and file.

Much of this detail concerned came from uniform elements found in Remedios regions in Mexico.

I hope this might better explain my suggestion this sword (of the OP) may well be from a Mexican unit of 19th c.
Thank you

[Jim McDougall]

The Gladius type character of numbers of these swords which turned up in cast brass hilts gave way to these zoomorphic pommel types as well as the famed 'briquet' used by artillery rank and file throughout European armies.
These were around from about 1790s well into the 19th c. and are among the most common other ranks swords known as they were used by so many armies and produced in hundreds of thousands.

I have a bizarre Mexican 'hybrid' which has a three bar cavalry guard, mounted on a cast briquet hilt with a cut down Spanish dragoon blade. This reflects the kinds of innovation, recycling and ersatz fabrication of swords which existed in the Spanish colonial frontiers.

With Mexican army regiments, it is not hard to imagine crudely applied markings applied by unskilled (typically) men charged with accounting for weaponry among often amalgamated forces on campaign.

Returning to the influences of these cast brass 'neoclassic' style sword hilts, the French weapons, in particular the 'gladius' type, also influenced the American military. In 1833, the Ames Sword Co. introduced the artillery sword fashioned exactly after the French model (in upper rt corner of the page attached in previous post) for their own artillery.
These prevailed into the Civil War where, though never really used combatively, the numbers of these were remarkable.

A number of years ago, an amateur archaeologist in New York regions dug up one of these, and declared he had found proof of ancient Romans in America!! as the 'gladius' character was so distinct. It was of course a Civil War relic of US troops stationed in those areas.

[fernando]

While i thought i would not venture any further conclusions unless i had a solid evidence to crack the inscription riddle, perhaps a couple hints on the subject would be pertinent ... i guess .
Suggestions that this gladius ( and more of the kind) found its way to Mexico, either sent by Napoleon to his fan Santa Ana or by later further conventions like those examples studied by Juan Calvó, stand beyond the possibility that it never left this side of the pond, i am afraid.
I confess my perplexity at the mode Jim's coleague explains the interpretation of marking methods in items quoted as found in Mexican battlefields. The way numerals like second (segundo) and seventh (septimo) are abreviated each one in a different manner, confuses me ... as in HERE and HERE .

Also the letters R referring to zapadores, the Y to minadores and the RL to Engineers are something atypical; obviously not abreviations but some kind of code, whih does not represent the regiment where the trooper served but some allegory ... the regiment, batallion or compay still to show somewhere in the uniform, or cap.
We can read that the constitution of the Mexican army units was somehow replicated from the Spanish ONES.
On the other hand, i have yet no reason to reject that, the initials in Bruno's sword are actual abreviations of regimental names/numbers. However the F after the R is one riddle to start with. There are records of historic units like those of Fusileros, Fortificaciones and Ferrocarriles; but not one that i spot as plausible for this specfic case.

[bvieira]

Found This similar sword :

https://www.auctionzip.com/auction-l...ERY_15C4EE483F

Could This evaluation as american revolution sword correct ?

TKS

BV

[Jim McDougall]

Well done Bruno!!
That example REALLY looks like yours! and while I cannot make out the scribed letters in the remarkably similar 'dumbbell' cross guard, it is tempting to think they may be another grouping of the 'field' type inscriptions on these swords.

The book on American Revolutionary war swords comprehensively illustrates many examples of the swords in use at the time in America. Not surprisingly there are many from assorted European countries, and actually numbers of these were from Spain. Spain actually was indirectly involved supportively in limited degree with the Colonials, as was France of course, sharing their ever present friction with England.

While it would be good to establish from a corroborating source that these brass lionhead swords were indeed French, it does seem they were somehow present in North American context, here appearing in two disparate sources.

Returning to the interesting markings, the subject of the thread, my references to the possible abbreviations of the lettering here are admittedly inadequate specifically, however they reflect a style of combinations which were used on Mexican arms (and uniforms) I have seen. These notes are from researches many years ago and frustratingly incomplete, but the gestalt of the groupings was to me, compelling.

During the American Revolution, there were swords such as 'bilbo's' and other types of Spanish colonial swords which turned up in American context as shown by Neumann. With France as an ally, again in degree, these swords could possibly have turned up here, however with these markings it is more probable that they turned up in Mexico in the acquisitions of 'surplus' after the end of the Napoleonic campaigns.

These materials were being dispersed not only by France, where the artillery acquired by Mexico originated, but by England who was dispersing much of its firearms with cessation of war by 1820s. Napoleon was defeated, and of course not the source of war materials to Santa Anna nor Mexico,....it was simply that Santa Anna admired him.

While these abbreviations and conventions in writing may have been in similar presence in Iberian context, the crude character of their application seems more in accord with the colonial and often remote Mexican possibility than Peninsular, where better facility was available.

Regarding the possible identity of the abbreviated (presumably) regiment on the guard of the OP sword, the 'R' may of course be 'regimento' but the 'F' is unclear. If it was to the name of the unit (honoring heroic officers etc. it is hard to isolate. The N and o would be numero (sword #) ...6, but the next 'F' is unclear.....but could be to fusiliers (?) .

Attached is the image of the sword identified as American Revolutionary war linked in post by Bviera. The indiscernible markings are crude much in the manner of the original example here, but suggest similar context in their application.

[fernando]

Excelent finding, Bruno.
Assuming the auctioner is certain of what he offered, both swords date can be placed on the XVIII century.
Apparently this time the engraver went right to business and first assigned the Compania, skipping over the Regimiento ... or, this unit was an 'independent' Company.
We notice that the artist was a different one, with a deeper carving and no ^ separators between figures; although both markings must have come from the same origin (country), that where the swords were first distributed, i would say.
We don't know yet if Bruno's sword was acquired in Europe (Portugal ?), in that the (both) markings were done in this continent, his example 'escaping' to become part of stocks exported to the Americas.
I dare say that, nothing is yet clear; even the R could Real, as often Spanish forces could be described ... this just to switch on the complicometer .

.