Napoleonic Period British Artillery Short Sword Initials

[corrado26]

Fernando, you are right! I had not seen the "A"s at the 6 and the F but concentrated on the small "A"s after the "R" and "F" at the beginning of the troop marking. Sorry, my fault

[Will M]

The lettering could have been done somewhat hastily in the field when many regiments were together and needed ownership markings on their arms.
Anyone with minimum skills could be drafted to help mark many weapons.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Will M

The lettering could have been done somewhat hastily in the field when many regiments were together and needed ownership markings on their arms.
Anyone with minimum skills could be drafted to help mark many weapons.

Quite a pertinent approach, Will.

[Jim McDougall]

Indeed, very well noted Will! But now that the linguistic possibilities of the letters/numerals have been thoroughly examined and discussed, what is the outcome for what these crudely scribed markings tell us?

So we know it is a French pattern, and the Mexicans received many artillery pieces from the French. Mexican general Santa Anna was obsessed with Napoleon and fashioned his army accordingly with uniforms either acquired from French or designed after them.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, again I will suggest, this sidearm may well have been acquired along with stores of materials from the French in post Napoleonic period, and as the markings' character corresponds to those used in Spanish (and Mexican) context this seems a viable deduction.

I hope this suggestion might be noticed and considered now that the most thorough examination of the markings has well carried support for this idea.
Thank you.

[Jim McDougall]

To further my idea that this apparent French 'naval' pattern artillery sword (as per Nuemann, 1973) of later 18th c. MAY well have found use in Mexican (or Spanish colonial) use in the post Napoleonic period, I submit the following:

A page from a French reference illustrating the zoomorphic pommels and styling of hilts on some brass French patterns in the period.

A page from Juan Calvo, "Machetes del Ejercito de Ultramar en Cuba y Puerto Rico", 2006.

Note the lion head examples and the manner of markings (No 362) etc.
While these are mid 19th c. Caribbean examples, the conventions in use as well in the Mexican army are apparent. In my notes from discussions with a colleague who has excavated Mexican battlefields extensively some years ago he described these marking methods.

The small 'o' in superscript represents 'nd' as in 2nd.
The small 'o' with dot beneath represents 'th', as in 7th.

After the Mexican Revolution of 1821, many regiments were named for heroes of those campaigns, by about 1839, the numbering styles were reinstituted.

The R letter typically referred to zapadores (sappers), R.Zapado
The letter Y meant minaderos (miners) Y minad
Rl (capital R hyperscript capital L) for Cuerpo de Ingenieros (Real Corps of Engineers).

These were rather elite units in the Mexican Army as they were highly specialized contrary to the rank and file.

Much of this detail concerned came from uniform elements found in Remedios regions in Mexico.

I hope this might better explain my suggestion this sword (of the OP) may well be from a Mexican unit of 19th c.
Thank you

[Jim McDougall]

The Gladius type character of numbers of these swords which turned up in cast brass hilts gave way to these zoomorphic pommel types as well as the famed 'briquet' used by artillery rank and file throughout European armies.
These were around from about 1790s well into the 19th c. and are among the most common other ranks swords known as they were used by so many armies and produced in hundreds of thousands.

I have a bizarre Mexican 'hybrid' which has a three bar cavalry guard, mounted on a cast briquet hilt with a cut down Spanish dragoon blade. This reflects the kinds of innovation, recycling and ersatz fabrication of swords which existed in the Spanish colonial frontiers.

With Mexican army regiments, it is not hard to imagine crudely applied markings applied by unskilled (typically) men charged with accounting for weaponry among often amalgamated forces on campaign.

Returning to the influences of these cast brass 'neoclassic' style sword hilts, the French weapons, in particular the 'gladius' type, also influenced the American military. In 1833, the Ames Sword Co. introduced the artillery sword fashioned exactly after the French model (in upper rt corner of the page attached in previous post) for their own artillery.
These prevailed into the Civil War where, though never really used combatively, the numbers of these were remarkable.

A number of years ago, an amateur archaeologist in New York regions dug up one of these, and declared he had found proof of ancient Romans in America!! as the 'gladius' character was so distinct. It was of course a Civil War relic of US troops stationed in those areas.

[fernando]

While i thought i would not venture any further conclusions unless i had a solid evidence to crack the inscription riddle, perhaps a couple hints on the subject would be pertinent ... i guess .
Suggestions that this gladius ( and more of the kind) found its way to Mexico, either sent by Napoleon to his fan Santa Ana or by later further conventions like those examples studied by Juan Calvó, stand beyond the possibility that it never left this side of the pond, i am afraid.
I confess my perplexity at the mode Jim's coleague explains the interpretation of marking methods in items quoted as found in Mexican battlefields. The way numerals like second (segundo) and seventh (septimo) are abreviated each one in a different manner, confuses me ... as in HERE and HERE .

Also the letters R referring to zapadores, the Y to minadores and the RL to Engineers are something atypical; obviously not abreviations but some kind of code, whih does not represent the regiment where the trooper served but some allegory ... the regiment, batallion or compay still to show somewhere in the uniform, or cap.
We can read that the constitution of the Mexican army units was somehow replicated from the Spanish ONES.
On the other hand, i have yet no reason to reject that, the initials in Bruno's sword are actual abreviations of regimental names/numbers. However the F after the R is one riddle to start with. There are records of historic units like those of Fusileros, Fortificaciones and Ferrocarriles; but not one that i spot as plausible for this specfic case.

[bvieira]

Found This similar sword :

https://www.auctionzip.com/auction-l...ERY_15C4EE483F

Could This evaluation as american revolution sword correct ?

TKS

BV

[fernando]

Originally Posted by corrado26

Fernando, you are right! I had not seen the "A"s at the 6 and the F but concentrated on the small "A"s after the "R" and "F" at the beginning of the troop marking. Sorry, my fault