Napoleonic Period British Artillery Short Sword Initials

fernando · 4th November 2019, 01:17 PM

Bruno, if you click on THIS LINK you will find some interesting info on these short swords ... but unfortunately not about the inscription

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Will M · 4th November 2019, 03:12 PM

The sword is a British pattern and is a patent hilt design with the full tang visible through the grip.
Interesting the link shows the reference book as it's a French naval sword but actually a Belgian infantry sword.
Somehow I did not remember it being in that book.
Some long held assumptions of it being British and french are false

Jim McDougall · 4th November 2019, 04:54 PM

Actually this does seem to resemble a type of British band sword of about 1820s if I recall, but that guard with a kind of dumbbell shape does seem French. The lion head was an extremely popular zoomorphic for pommels from mid 18th c. and its use may well be from other European influences, but as far as I recall no distinct links are asserted in the varied instances.

I would note here that the use of the lion head in the American colonies was very much in line with these figures in Great Britain, naturally as in the Revolutionary period and later these people had been British. Actually many, if not most of the edged weapons used in America were British or other European forms.

The convention of using superscript in abbreviation was, as far as I have found, used throughout European cases, which includes England and France as well as Spain, though it does seem Spanish examples are resoundingly apparent.

fernando · 5th November 2019, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...The convention of using superscript in abbreviation was, as far as I have found, used throughout European cases, which includes England and France as well as Spain, though it does seem Spanish examples are resoundingly apparent.

I confess that i would not have the capacity to judge on this "Gladius" origin, as visibly this type of sword appeared in more than one place. Also while i will not dispute Bruno's info coming from his British connection that this is a British version, i would not be so certain that it has been a regular weapon in the Peninsular War; well, it is not listed in Faria/Regalado work, for one.
On the other hand i feel more comfortable in dissecting the inscription characteristics, in what concerns the abbreviations. The deal here is gender; zillions of substantives (nouns) are either masculine or feminine, both in Spanish and Portuguese ... and other Latinized languages.
Meaning that those A's are either Portuguese or Spanish feminine articles; not English nor French. Same goes for the 0 being of masculine gender. So those marks could well be regimental; the Nº being for a number (número) if we 'speculate' that there is a faded digit hidden by the (later ?) central fixation rivet. Also if we speculate that the G could well be a 6, we would have something like a sixth (sexta) company, or the like.
Still i don't find a matching regimental mark for this inscription, even considering the above thoughts; so i have just digressed

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Jim McDougall · 5th November 2019, 04:08 PM

Fernando, excellent explanation and analysis on the superscript! While I had been observing only the visual characteristics of these abbreviated letters/acronyms, your linguistic examination gives essential dimension to estimating their probable origin.

This has brought me to an exciting idea.....could this be a French artillery sidearm which found its way into Mexican hands in the early 19th c. (pre Alamo, 1836)??
The Mexican army had received considerable artillery pieces in the early 19th century from France...……..does it not seem reasonable that perhaps some artillery sidearms might have also been included?

The presence of Spanish inscribed unit numbers (and they do indeed resemble these from those I have seen) on a French weapon is thus plausibly explained in this context if my idea is correct.

VERY good acquisition! and fascinating possibility thanks to Fernando's observations.

corrado26 · 5th November 2019, 04:37 PM

My kowledge of the Spanish language is very little but couldn't these letters stand for "Regimiento Fusilador N°6 compania n°6 = F-company?
corrado26

fernando · 5th November 2019, 05:48 PM

May i call it a long shot Udo ?

4th November 2019, 03:12 PM	#2
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 394	The sword is a British pattern and is a patent hilt design with the full tang visible through the grip. Interesting the link shows the reference book as it's a French naval sword but actually a Belgian infantry sword. Somehow I did not remember it being in that book. Some long held assumptions of it being British and french are false Last edited by Will M; 4th November 2019 at 03:23 PM.

4th November 2019, 01:17 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Bruno, if you click on THIS LINK you will find some interesting info on these short swords ... but unfortunately not about the inscription .

4th November 2019, 04:54 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Actually this does seem to resemble a type of British band sword of about 1820s if I recall, but that guard with a kind of dumbbell shape does seem French. The lion head was an extremely popular zoomorphic for pommels from mid 18th c. and its use may well be from other European influences, but as far as I recall no distinct links are asserted in the varied instances. I would note here that the use of the lion head in the American colonies was very much in line with these figures in Great Britain, naturally as in the Revolutionary period and later these people had been British. Actually many, if not most of the edged weapons used in America were British or other European forms. The convention of using superscript in abbreviation was, as far as I have found, used throughout European cases, which includes England and France as well as Spain, though it does seem Spanish examples are resoundingly apparent.

5th November 2019, 04:08 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Fernando, excellent explanation and analysis on the superscript! While I had been observing only the visual characteristics of these abbreviated letters/acronyms, your linguistic examination gives essential dimension to estimating their probable origin. This has brought me to an exciting idea.....could this be a French artillery sidearm which found its way into Mexican hands in the early 19th c. (pre Alamo, 1836)?? The Mexican army had received considerable artillery pieces in the early 19th century from France...……..does it not seem reasonable that perhaps some artillery sidearms might have also been included? The presence of Spanish inscribed unit numbers (and they do indeed resemble these from those I have seen) on a French weapon is thus plausibly explained in this context if my idea is correct. VERY good acquisition! and fascinating possibility thanks to Fernando's observations.

5th November 2019, 04:37 PM	#6
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,226	My kowledge of the Spanish language is very little but couldn't these letters stand for "Regimiento Fusilador N°6 compania n°6 = F-company? corrado26

5th November 2019, 05:48 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	May i call it a long shot Udo ?