Stiletto for comments ... please

fernando · 28th October 2019, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you Fernando, that was what I was looking for. So it would seem such proscriptions were officially present in the principality ruled by Gonzaga, how broad was the jurisdiction covered? It would seem this would add credibility to the use of faux graduated marks to legitimize the possession of fusetti.

The Gonzagas were dukes of Mantua, which is only a comuna of Lombardia. Even though this is not far from the Veneto and Vicenzo having married one Leonor de Medici from Florence in second nuptiails would be no more than a coincidence.
The transcription i have pasted from the exhaustive CATALOGO DELA ARMERIA REALE, was one tat i found easy to deal with, translations and all.
Perhaps a more substantial part in relation with the current issue is this one below, that again i tried hard to fine tune the translation. But i think you can discern from it what is at stake; as also i hope Batjka approves all these interpretations.

" Questi fusetti degli esempj sono gli ordinar j usati a quel tempo, ossia il vocabolo era sinonimo di stiletto. 11 nostro fusetto invece, numerato da 1 a 120, è quello dei Bombardieri veneti presso i quali ne incominciò Fuso nel secolo XVII e forse non prima del 1661, come si può giudicare dal seguente documento. — Noi Proueditori air Arteglieria. Facciamo saper a tutti che il Strenuo Antonio Spadon q. ra Lorenzo, s'attroua descritto per Caporale di Scolari Bombardieri di questa Città è stato da noi eletto per Caporale della Compagnia di Bombardieri di questa città Per tale dunque sarà d’ogni Scolaro Bombardiere riconosciuto et obbedito; Commettemo però a tutti et cadauno pubblico Ministro che debba lasciargli liberamente portare in questa città il Stillo Sagomato giusta alla Parte dell’Eccelso Conseglio di Xci * : 15 Lug.° 1661

" These fuses of the examples are the ordinaries used at that time, that is, the word was synonymous with stiletto. Our fuse, on the other hand, numbered from 1 to 120, is that of the Venetian bombers where Fuso began in the seventeenth century and perhaps not before 1661, as can be judged from the following document. - Us Proueditori AirArteglieria. Let us all know that the strenuous Antonio Spadon q. ra Lorenzo, has been described for Caporale di Scolari Bombardieri of this City was with us ...., elected for Corporal of the Bombardier Company of this city Therefore for every Bomber apprentice will be recognized and obeyed; However, we commit to everybody and every public minister that should let him freely carry in this city the Shaped Stillo right to the Part of the Eminent Council of Xci: 15th July 1661

* Could this be the one and only Councel of the Ten ?

Jim McDougall · 1st November 2019, 04:07 AM

Thanks very much Fernando, that was indeed, as I understand, the notorious Council of Ten (CX) in Venice. I looked back at notes from "Gunners Daggers" by Marcello Terenzi (Arms & Armor Annual, ed. Robert Held, 1973) that the gunners stiletto (also termed bombardiers daggers) were typically Venetian of 17th-18th c. The edict you kindly translated (of 1661) concerning a man named Antonio Spadone, was apparently last used in 1728, after which these stiletto seem to have ceased general use.

While it seems these were notably recognized as Venetian, Sir James Mann wrote on them in 1931 mentioning that they were known in Brescia from around 1570s with scales to measure bore and shot. The scale seems to measure 1 to 120 resulting in these measured examples termed 'un centoventi' meaning in Italian, 120. Mann, in Wallace Coll. (1962) shows three of these stilettos, primarily mid 17th c .
(all these notations were previously mentioned in Fernando's earlier posts but just reiterating here with review of the Terenzi article also prev. noted).

It seems there is consistent note to the use of these stilettos, with the distinct graduated scales, being used to 'spike' cannon touch holes.
A reference to these 'fusetti' being issued to cannoneers as a kind of badge of corps, which was apparently quite a honor. With such a status oriented weapon, it would seem highly regrettable and distasteful to use such a weapon in that manner. I suppose it would depend on the situation, but that such a weapon would be intended for such use seems odd, and the more pragmatic uses of measure and likely puncturing powder bags more probable. Some examples I have heard of had corrosion commensurate with the effects of powder noted.

1st November 2019, 04:07 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Thanks very much Fernando, that was indeed, as I understand, the notorious Council of Ten (CX) in Venice. I looked back at notes from "Gunners Daggers" by Marcello Terenzi (Arms & Armor Annual, ed. Robert Held, 1973) that the gunners stiletto (also termed bombardiers daggers) were typically Venetian of 17th-18th c. The edict you kindly translated (of 1661) concerning a man named Antonio Spadone, was apparently last used in 1728, after which these stiletto seem to have ceased general use. While it seems these were notably recognized as Venetian, Sir James Mann wrote on them in 1931 mentioning that they were known in Brescia from around 1570s with scales to measure bore and shot. The scale seems to measure 1 to 120 resulting in these measured examples termed 'un centoventi' meaning in Italian, 120. Mann, in Wallace Coll. (1962) shows three of these stilettos, primarily mid 17th c . (all these notations were previously mentioned in Fernando's earlier posts but just reiterating here with review of the Terenzi article also prev. noted). It seems there is consistent note to the use of these stilettos, with the distinct graduated scales, being used to 'spike' cannon touch holes. A reference to these 'fusetti' being issued to cannoneers as a kind of badge of corps, which was apparently quite a honor. With such a status oriented weapon, it would seem highly regrettable and distasteful to use such a weapon in that manner. I suppose it would depend on the situation, but that such a weapon would be intended for such use seems odd, and the more pragmatic uses of measure and likely puncturing powder bags more probable. Some examples I have heard of had corrosion commensurate with the effects of powder noted.