Transitional, Victorian, Other?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Some great observations here, and great catch by Udo on that majuscule A, as seen in the early Toledo markings. That marking on this sword of the OP looked almost like an oriental chop to me, and I didn't notice the A at first...

Jim, Udo will certainly appreciate your cheering his catch; however and as i have already observed, i am afraid i may not concur with such assessment ... for reasons relating either with the association of this mark to Toledo smiths and for it being a majuscule A, which i find more like a symbol than an alphabetic letter. We are aware of the somehow enigmatic habit of Toledan espaderos, to often using initials other than those of their (known) names in their personal marks, a criteria that, in this specific case, appear in a few examples. Go figure why they use a A, or what looks like a A, in their punzones. But in any case so far distant from the mark in Glen's blade,


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[Hotspur]

The marks on this blade present other questions if a modern take on a period blade reconstruction. Disregarding the castle for a moment, if a modern mark meant to emulate a famous maker, wouldn't they choose something immediately familiar?

A second, for Jim. If it is a re-purposed 19th century blade, what might that origin be?

I will endeavor to shoot some clearer photos of the hilt construct itself and dialog a bit more about the blade cross section, etc.

Cheers
GC

Oh, re the guard screw. It is not so much the screw attachment as the type of screw, Also that the peen block may indeed be a nut but that alone would not dismiss a 17th century sword.

[Hotspur]

I guess I see other things as well that give me pause. The quillion block itself is shaped for use, rather than just display. The perforations of the plates appear cast but were they cast with the guard or soldered in. More stuff I hope to determine once in hand. Some oil and probing in scraping any possible joins.

Cheers
GC

[Hotspur]

Finally for now, an image I forgot to save that might absolutely label it a decorator. The way the marks read would be hilt up vs what we generally read with the design and marks to read blade up. A better look at the cast plates as well.

Cheers
GC

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Finally for now, an image I forgot to save that might absolutely label it a decorator. The way the marks read would be hilt up vs what we generally read with the design and marks to read blade up...

You'd wish this were the only odd thing in it. Could always be that the markings were made by or for a later owner without such preoccupation; not impossible ... and encouraging .

[Jim McDougall]

It seems well known that alphabetic characters are in themselves symbols, and it is often known that they are so well recognized that it is easily presumed that a symbol represents a given 'letter'. It would seem obvious that the association Udo drew to SOME of the marks used by Toledo smiths (as seen in the names paired with the SYMBOLS noted which RESEMBLE letter A). intended to show the SIMILARITY (as he specified) to these marks.
That the Toledo smiths did not always use their own initials as punzone marks has seemed pretty well known to those of us who have studied markings for some time.

My comment to Udo was in appreciation of his observant catch in recognizing these marks, and using the Toledo examples as illustration. I had seen the mark on the sword we are discussing, crudely executed and almost resembling an oriental 'chop'. My analogy is meant only visually, and I am not suggesting this represents a Chinese marking. It was intended much as Udo's entry, an analogy.

The majuscule LETTER A in medieval and later alphabets often is seen in a kind of labarum structure with the cross bar atop , and the central bar having a V appearing drop down as seen on these 'Toledo' marks. Various references show these letters A in different contexts in European markings, and in some cases, the 'A' was thought to indicate Augsburg.

As seen in the image of the well flourished 'A' the structure is similar to those used in Toledo, and curiously there is a fluer de lis, which I would point out was NOT exclusively French, but known in Spain and Italy as well as even Germany. Therefore this 'A' cannot be construed as 'French' alone

As for the position of the markings on Glen's blade, as he has aptly observed, these are not placed in the proper upright position typically seen in placement of such devices on blades.

The blade seems 19th c. to me, but I emphasize 'seems' as in perhaps some officers swords. The dramatic point does not seem in character.
I do not personally consider this a 'decorator' but perhaps a court or dress type accoutrement which may be viable as a weapon, but that remains to be seen.

I had thought of the pierced bilobate guard only in the more elaborate
Pappenheimer' hilts of the 17th c., however these type pierced guards were also in small sword epees as seen in the image.


Jury's still out

[Hotspur]

In passing, Juan Perez writes "nice sword" and of seeing nothing particularly Spanish about it, and suggests the ducal crowns might point to Germany or Austria.

All of a sudden I'm going in six directions that briefly take me to the 1662 copper riots in Moscow. It was not the Russian marriage to a duke I was looking for though and found a castle in that Bavarian duchy coat of arms. Winding up perhaps not so strangely looking at schloss Hirschberg of Eichstätt. The castle burned in a lightning storm in 1632, only (from a German wiki) "Only 1670 to 1729, the castle was partly rebuilt, partly renewed." and what I'd like to see is this "A votive picture of the caretaker Lorenz von Helmstadt, which today hangs on the second floor of the staircase, conveys a picture of the destroyed structure."

Could it have been a sword of homage done at some point? I have come across such period swords relating the passing of a general (the name escapes me, Hanoverian iirc) in the 18th century.

I'll hold on more thought until it arrives.

Cheers
GC

Dang, I did not save the pictures, it was a sword made in homage for (etched to) Friedrich II Landgraf of Hesse-Kassel a dandy slotted hilt but I digress

Here was another blade etched to him. Again a sidebar.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It seems well known that alphabetic characters are in themselves symbols,

Dearest Jim, i will act as if you didn't drop my knowledge to even lower than what it really is. Definitely this is not your 'symbolic' style, nor are we too old to have start losing our discernment .
I will not digest possibilities based on esoterica, but do not avoid flying on plausible imagination.
What i figure to have a sense in Toledan smith marks within the discussed context, are those relative to the Toledo (guild) name, namely the upper bar for T for TOLEDO upon the 'said to be' letter A and the appendix L for TOLEDO on the lower right side.



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