Castel Sant' Angelo

Jim McDougall · 13th October 2019, 06:08 PM

Victrix thank you so much for reviving this thread from 2010 on the armories of the Castel sant Angelo, and for sharing these amazing photos. It must have been an amazing experience!
Fernando, thank you for sharing your photos as well.

What prompted me to post this in 2010 was continued research on a well worn British M1796 light cavalry saber (by Thomas Bate, Birmingham) which I got in about 1977. It had the unusual markings CsA 4 43 on the langet, there was no scabbard, and the blade had a clearly deliberate notching at the tip.

As I was writing at article on this which was published in Stockholm (2008), I had included the many theories on these curious markings which had been entertained over the years. Initially of course, it was thought these might be Confederate regimental marks, however extensive research revealed that units did not mark their weapons (with few exceptions such as Virginia cavalry).

I also thought perhaps that this sword might have entered the Spanish colonial sphere, as it is well known that the Mexican army was largely supplied with British arms. However the style of these markings in no way matched, even tenuously, with Carlos IV weapons.

As these possibilities were extinguished, an idea was suggested by Richard Dellar ("British Cavalry Swords 1798-1912: Some New Perspectives", 2013).
In the 19th c. campaigns for the unification of Italy, the autonomy of the Vatican was threatened, and Catholic volunteers from many countries came to join forces for the Pope. There were of course some cavalry, and it is well known that these British M1796 sabers had been widely distributed as surplus when the pattern discontinued in 1822.

His idea was that these markings could 'possibly' have represented the Castel san Angelo (CsA) and the 4 and 43 possibly unit and rack numbers. It was a not only compelling but remarkably plausible suggestion, and presented by an author whose knowledge on British cavalry swords is brilliant.

Though of course remaining unproven despite this convincing plausibility, I continue the case as 'open', and hope others out there might have comments, observations and perhaps other evidence.

Victrix · 13th October 2019, 07:48 PM

Jim, Rome is amazing with all its buildings. I had hoped to view more arms and armour. Your sword seems intriguing. It’s a pity I only found this thread on my return as the first two small rooms on the top floor were dedicated to the Risorgimento period I believe, and I skipped it as I’m currently more interested in pre 19thC history! I could have looked to see if I could spot any armoury marks on the equipment on display. As I could see, the Italians call it Castel Sant’Angelo so the abbreviation may be CSA rather than CsA (although 150 years ago it might have been different)? It appears like the tip on your sword was purposely cut out?

Jim McDougall · 14th October 2019, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Jim, Rome is amazing with all its buildings. I had hoped to view more arms and armour. Your sword seems intriguing. It’s a pity I only found this thread on my return as the first two small rooms on the top floor were dedicated to the Risorgimento period I believe, and I skipped it as I’m currently more interested in pre 19thC history! I could have looked to see if I could spot any armoury marks on the equipment on display. As I could see, the Italians call it Castel Sant’Angelo so the abbreviation may be CSA rather than CsA (although 150 years ago it might have been different)? It appears like the tip on your sword was purposely cut out?

Indeed it would be great to reach someone in that particular Risorgimento period section regarding weapons markings, however I have never been successful in communication with Italian arms or museum persons.

The marking configuration on my sword reflects a type of abbreviation convention popular in the 19th c. using lower case letters for wording.
Thus the S for san or san't btween Castle San Angelo was lower case.
That is if indeed this was what the letters mean.
Th '4' may have been a unit (there were several cavalry units in the Vatican forces) and the 43 a rack number.
This is of course all theory, but other explanations have fallen short.

The cut out in the blade tip is baffling, and it was clearly deliberately done. Many years back, I discovered that many Austrian swords of the 18th century had a notch distinctly cut into back of blade near the tip. I first saw these in Wagner's ("Cut and Thrust Weapons", 1967) in the line drawings.
To confirm these were actual and not artistic flaws, I contacted the museums holding the swords the drawings were from, and photos confirmed the notches did exist.
Wagner suggested the notches were to worsen a thrust wound, but then why would they exist on a saber tip, when these were slashing cuts. The notion of a notch in a thrust is equally suspect as in reality, the blade would become hopelessly caught in the victim with the notch impairing withdrawal.

Years of research revealed no reasonable answer for the curious deliberate notches in these blades, and the mystery remains unexplained. It would seem the blade of this saber and its notch may fall into this anomalous case.

fernando · 14th October 2019, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

It’s a pity I only found this thread on my return as the first two small rooms on the top floor were dedicated to the Risorgimento period I believe...

I too though this thread was pretty recent, so as per your post. I must say that, when i entered the castle, with no recommendations, i was not arms thinking but intending to admire the building itself. Then at the entrance i saw a few objects in vitrines and realized the castle was also a museum. However, after a better look i noticed that, what should be expected in such historic place and attending to glorious Roman Empire history, what was exhibited in the hall vitrines in connection with such period, gladius and its 'peripherals', was a couple examples in a tremendously excavated condition. And that was all they show concerning such charismatic period. What a deception.
Then when visiting the floors and like you, i skipped the sections with more 'modern' material.

Victrix · 14th October 2019, 03:52 PM

There was’t all that much even in the first two rooms. Makes you wonder where they keep the rest of their “impressive” collection?? The museum description states that the katzbalger is 17thC but it looks more 16thC to me.

.

13th October 2019, 06:08 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	Victrix thank you so much for reviving this thread from 2010 on the armories of the Castel sant Angelo, and for sharing these amazing photos. It must have been an amazing experience! Fernando, thank you for sharing your photos as well. What prompted me to post this in 2010 was continued research on a well worn British M1796 light cavalry saber (by Thomas Bate, Birmingham) which I got in about 1977. It had the unusual markings CsA 4 43 on the langet, there was no scabbard, and the blade had a clearly deliberate notching at the tip. As I was writing at article on this which was published in Stockholm (2008), I had included the many theories on these curious markings which had been entertained over the years. Initially of course, it was thought these might be Confederate regimental marks, however extensive research revealed that units did not mark their weapons (with few exceptions such as Virginia cavalry). I also thought perhaps that this sword might have entered the Spanish colonial sphere, as it is well known that the Mexican army was largely supplied with British arms. However the style of these markings in no way matched, even tenuously, with Carlos IV weapons. As these possibilities were extinguished, an idea was suggested by Richard Dellar ("British Cavalry Swords 1798-1912: Some New Perspectives", 2013). In the 19th c. campaigns for the unification of Italy, the autonomy of the Vatican was threatened, and Catholic volunteers from many countries came to join forces for the Pope. There were of course some cavalry, and it is well known that these British M1796 sabers had been widely distributed as surplus when the pattern discontinued in 1822. His idea was that these markings could 'possibly' have represented the Castel san Angelo (CsA) and the 4 and 43 possibly unit and rack numbers. It was a not only compelling but remarkably plausible suggestion, and presented by an author whose knowledge on British cavalry swords is brilliant. Though of course remaining unproven despite this convincing plausibility, I continue the case as 'open', and hope others out there might have comments, observations and perhaps other evidence. Attached Images

14th October 2019, 03:52 PM	#5
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	There was’t all that much even in the first two rooms. Makes you wonder where they keep the rest of their “impressive” collection?? The museum description states that the katzbalger is 17thC but it looks more 16thC to me. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 14th October 2019 at 04:05 PM. Reason: May i put them up ?

13th October 2019, 07:48 PM	#2
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Jim, Rome is amazing with all its buildings. I had hoped to view more arms and armour. Your sword seems intriguing. It’s a pity I only found this thread on my return as the first two small rooms on the top floor were dedicated to the Risorgimento period I believe, and I skipped it as I’m currently more interested in pre 19thC history! I could have looked to see if I could spot any armoury marks on the equipment on display. As I could see, the Italians call it Castel Sant’Angelo so the abbreviation may be CSA rather than CsA (although 150 years ago it might have been different)? It appears like the tip on your sword was purposely cut out?