Tulwar for comment

Kubur · 10th October 2019, 10:48 PM

No one is seeing an half moon like me??
European half moon faces filled with cooper or brass?
Absolutely not convinced that it is European...
Please show me some similar blades from Europe...
Nice sword by the way

Kubur · 10th October 2019, 11:19 PM

ohhh what a surprise an Indian sword
with an Indian blade
with the same little stars...

Jim McDougall · 11th October 2019, 12:34 AM

Kubur! You ARE good!!!!
Well done on showing this blade with 'Indian stars' (aka European cogwheels).

This blade has the distinct 'Indian ricasso', and as you point out these cogwheel marks configured in well known Italian arrangement.

Here is the deal. These 'cogwheels' are well known in Italian markings and often placed with other devices in motif on European blades. I am attaching (from Boccia & Coelho, 1975) some images of the typical conventions used in Italian markings end of 16th into early 17th c. They are North Italy of course.

Note the 'vesical piscus' ellipse in one grouping along with the cogwheels and the dentation on the ellipse. There is also an apparent affinity for images in roundels, such as the winged griffin as well as the winged lion of St. Marks.
While these images in roundel surround are shown, the cogwheels seem to be placed around or bracketing them.

The image of the man in the moon, which you have aptly emphasized, is seen in roundel (after the Italian fashion?) but on a German blade of c. 1630. This image is from the Wallace collection (Mann 1962).
Again, the inlay of gold metal in markings was a German favored affectation, but not saying not used in other exceptions, just in my opinion, not India.

In the case of this tulwar, could the marking arrangement have been copied in India....of course. But would the armorers gone to the added detail of 'latten' filled markings? It would be remarkably unusual.

In the case of the linear cogwheel marks shown in the tulwar, indeed I have seen these, but usually on khanda blades typically shown as 'firangi', that is with Italian (or other European) blade.

kahnjar1 · 11th October 2019, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

ohhh what a surprise an Indian sword
with an Indian blade
with the same little stars...

Hi Kubur,
No, the stars are different. Yours have 8 points and those on mine only 6. Not to say though that those on your sword are Indian copies.
Stu

Jim McDougall · 11th October 2019, 02:23 AM

Ok, looked into Boccia & Coelho again ("Armi Bianchi Italiene"", 1975) which is of course on Italian edged weapons. These images are of short sabres known as storta, which are from early 17th c.
Please note the variant blade features, which include ricasso and choil at the blade forte.
Also in the one image, look at the plethora of 'Indian stars'!!!!

(#6)

The use of forefinger over the forward quillon has been described in numbers of sources, often using the term 'Italian grip' if I recall correctly. There has been considerable debate over the suggestions that Indian swordsmen used this grip with extended forefinger over the quillon, but perhaps this may be the source for the feature which Indians added to their blades termed the 'Indian ricasso'.

Here we see, 'Italian' swords with these blade features, and of course the markings being discussed, known in Italy as 'cogwheels'. In European heraldry I believe they are called mullets. The number of radiating spikes do not seem significant.

In my view though, the blade posted by Kubur with these linear cogwheels is Italian, thus the sword is 'firangi'. Again, I have not seen these type marks duplicated by Indian blade makers, but the use of Italian blades appears to have a long tradition in India. These brought in by Portuguese certainly remained in circulation for some time, added to by the German blades so well favored and known, termed 'Alemani'.

Kubur, what in particular makes this blade (post 26) in this tulwar, 'Indian' in your view? As I mentioned, these type arrangements on straight SE blades in khanda seem invariably to be Italian, and seem to be from from perhaps schiavona of 18th c.

On the use of copper/brass filled markings, the running wolf and cross and orb are the most commonly seen examples and invariably on German blades it seems.

Kubur · 11th October 2019, 10:42 AM

Stu you are right the stars are abut different but enough similar to me.
Jim the sword that I posted is not mine but the whole blade is absolutely Indian (the cut, the ricasso, the yelman) and if you search a bit you will find hundred of them and dozen with the little stars.
Indians copied European blades.
The man in the moon on Stu's blade is very different from the European blades that I have with the same "moon face".
I will be very happy if Stu's sword has an European blade.
But please brings me evidences.
Now Jim look at the post of a guy called McDougall

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...olingen+Blades

Post 28: this one seems to me a serious contender and then maybe a proof that your blade Stu is European... OR Caucasian!!! Caucasian sounds good to me...

Jens Nordlunde · 11th October 2019, 03:42 PM

Kubur's blade should be turned like this.

Khanjar1, to make it easier please show the round mark turning the right way.
Hold the sword with the blade pointing up in the air, and take a picture of the mark. Thank you.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 11th October 2019, 05:44 PM

Reference;
A. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_Solomon
B. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexagram

The thread is most interesting since it illustrates the latten inlay on six pointed stars most accurately and draws in another style of star with eight points. Of the eight pointer I have absolutely no idea except that there is no distinction between a five and a six pointer thus perhaps they mean the same... but with eight?

On the Six Pointer; There are two main separate meanings ...One in Indian religious form and the other European sense. The one we all know about is The Seal of Solomon but this is misleading since it was used for centuries in Christian form before it was adopted into Jewish . It would seem to support the view that latten inlay being used first in European swords from an ancient European seal of Solomon / star of David design points to the subject blade being European not middle eastern. Note however that ancient Damascus blades had the star form on the blade..confusingly appearing on British military blades even today as a mark of quality or in memory of high quality blades with that insignia. Wilkinson Swords all have that same star on the blade at the throat.

From Reference B Quote"It is not to be wondered at, therefore, that for a long time both the five-pointed and the six-pointed stars were called by one name, the "Seal of Solomon," and that no distinction was made between them. This name is obviously related to the Jewish legend of Solomon's dominion over the spirits, and of his ring with the Ineffable Name engraved on it. These legends expanded and proliferated in a marked fashion during the Middle Ages, among Jews and Arabs alike, but the name, "Seal of Solomon," apparently originated with the Arabs."Unquote.

Please see wikepedia at Reference B on the subject of this sign and the amazing array of different meanings attached in particular the Indian form of the star which is entirely different to the European reason...but may well be why it may have appeared on Indian weapons?

Below an actual ring; .. The Seal of Solomon.

kahnjar1 · 11th October 2019, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Kubur's blade should be turned like this.

Khanjar1, to make it easier please show the round mark turning the right way.
Hold the sword with the blade pointing up in the air, and take a picture of the mark. Thank you.

Hi Jens,
Here are the pics rotated. Yes I see it now...."man in the moon" mark.
Stu

Jim McDougall · 11th October 2019, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Stu you are right the stars are abut different but enough similar to me.
Jim the sword that I posted is not mine but the whole blade is absolutely Indian (the cut, the ricasso, the yelman) and if you search a bit you will find hundred of them and dozen with the little stars.
Indians copied European blades.
The man in the moon on Stu's blade is very different from the European blades that I have with the same "moon face".
I will be very happy if Stu's sword has an European blade.
But please brings me evidences.
Now Jim look at the post of a guy called McDougall

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...olingen+Blades

Post 28: this one seems to me a serious contender and then maybe a proof that your blade Stu is European... OR Caucasian!!! Caucasian sounds good to me...

Who is this guy called McDougall!!????

Kubur, seriously, thank you for linking that most interesting discussion, which really did cover a lot on the wide diffusion and copying of the crescent 'man in the moon' figure . There is no doubt this was widely copied, not just obviously Solingen, but in numbers of native shops in various cultures.
The crescent moon seems to have had a sort of universal application which worked nicely into the symbolisms of various religious, talismanic and occult followings.

What I have been referring to primarily the 'stars', again termed the 'cogwheel' colloquially in European parlance, and there again in European heraldry as the 'mullet' (fr. mollette) which loosely represents a spur.

I really do appreciate everyone's patience in discussing this dilemma in trying to determine which blades (with Stu's example) are indeed European as opposed to Indian made copies. There is no denying that Indian artisans were remarkably skilled, but we are looking at what symbols, designs or conventions were adopted by them in producing their own versions of blades.

I think the example Jens shows is interesting, and is of course more in regard to the proper position in viewing the blade markings, with point held upward.
It is obviously not meant in comparison to Kuburs blade (on a tulwar) wih lines of 'stars'.

As I had noted, these 'stars' (cogwheel, mullet) were not a feature I have seen on Indian made mark groupings. Again, as well pointed out and confirmed by Jens, the use of gold metal inlay (in these type marks) was not done by Indian makers. It was very much a European affectation, used mostly on the cross and orb or Passau wolf, but in this case obviously used more liberally in cosmological designs.

The blade fullering, linear mullets/cogwheels on Kubur's example (post #26) simply ring Italian, and my post illustrating 'storta' swords from Boccia & Coelho (1975) show these swords with similar blade features....as well as the profuse use of the 'stars'.

The roundel, as Kubur as pointed out several times (in Stu's example OP) seems possibly to have what remains of a crescent moon as also repeatedly mentioned as a possible enclosure in it. Again, it seems well established that the moon itself was widely copied in astral themes, but with the cogwheels, it seems to point to European application.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 11th October 2019, 06:20 PM

NOTE IT IS AN Indian FORM Please see wikepedia at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexagram on the subject of this sign and the amazing array of different meanings attached in particular the Indian form of the star which is entirely different to the European reason...but may well be why it may have appeared on Indian weapons?

11th October 2019, 12:34 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Kubur! You ARE good!!!! Well done on showing this blade with 'Indian stars' (aka European cogwheels). This blade has the distinct 'Indian ricasso', and as you point out these cogwheel marks configured in well known Italian arrangement. Here is the deal. These 'cogwheels' are well known in Italian markings and often placed with other devices in motif on European blades. I am attaching (from Boccia & Coelho, 1975) some images of the typical conventions used in Italian markings end of 16th into early 17th c. They are North Italy of course. Note the 'vesical piscus' ellipse in one grouping along with the cogwheels and the dentation on the ellipse. There is also an apparent affinity for images in roundels, such as the winged griffin as well as the winged lion of St. Marks. While these images in roundel surround are shown, the cogwheels seem to be placed around or bracketing them. The image of the man in the moon, which you have aptly emphasized, is seen in roundel (after the Italian fashion?) but on a German blade of c. 1630. This image is from the Wallace collection (Mann 1962). Again, the inlay of gold metal in markings was a German favored affectation, but not saying not used in other exceptions, just in my opinion, not India. In the case of this tulwar, could the marking arrangement have been copied in India....of course. But would the armorers gone to the added detail of 'latten' filled markings? It would be remarkably unusual. In the case of the linear cogwheel marks shown in the tulwar, indeed I have seen these, but usually on khanda blades typically shown as 'firangi', that is with Italian (or other European) blade. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 11th October 2019 at 12:45 AM.

11th October 2019, 02:23 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Ok, looked into Boccia & Coelho again ("Armi Bianchi Italiene"", 1975) which is of course on Italian edged weapons. These images are of short sabres known as storta, which are from early 17th c. Please note the variant blade features, which include ricasso and choil at the blade forte. Also in the one image, look at the plethora of 'Indian stars'!!!! (#6) The use of forefinger over the forward quillon has been described in numbers of sources, often using the term 'Italian grip' if I recall correctly. There has been considerable debate over the suggestions that Indian swordsmen used this grip with extended forefinger over the quillon, but perhaps this may be the source for the feature which Indians added to their blades termed the 'Indian ricasso'. Here we see, 'Italian' swords with these blade features, and of course the markings being discussed, known in Italy as 'cogwheels'. In European heraldry I believe they are called mullets. The number of radiating spikes do not seem significant. In my view though, the blade posted by Kubur with these linear cogwheels is Italian, thus the sword is 'firangi'. Again, I have not seen these type marks duplicated by Indian blade makers, but the use of Italian blades appears to have a long tradition in India. These brought in by Portuguese certainly remained in circulation for some time, added to by the German blades so well favored and known, termed 'Alemani'. Kubur, what in particular makes this blade (post 26) in this tulwar, 'Indian' in your view? As I mentioned, these type arrangements on straight SE blades in khanda seem invariably to be Italian, and seem to be from from perhaps schiavona of 18th c. On the use of copper/brass filled markings, the running wolf and cross and orb are the most commonly seen examples and invariably on German blades it seems. Attached Images

11th October 2019, 03:42 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Kubur's blade should be turned like this. Khanjar1, to make it easier please show the round mark turning the right way. Hold the sword with the blade pointing up in the air, and take a picture of the mark. Thank you. Attached Images

11th October 2019, 05:44 PM	#8
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Reference; A. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_Solomon B. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexagram The thread is most interesting since it illustrates the latten inlay on six pointed stars most accurately and draws in another style of star with eight points. Of the eight pointer I have absolutely no idea except that there is no distinction between a five and a six pointer thus perhaps they mean the same... but with eight? On the Six Pointer; There are two main separate meanings ...One in Indian religious form and the other European sense. The one we all know about is The Seal of Solomon but this is misleading since it was used for centuries in Christian form before it was adopted into Jewish . It would seem to support the view that latten inlay being used first in European swords from an ancient European seal of Solomon / star of David design points to the subject blade being European not middle eastern. Note however that ancient Damascus blades had the star form on the blade..confusingly appearing on British military blades even today as a mark of quality or in memory of high quality blades with that insignia. Wilkinson Swords all have that same star on the blade at the throat. From Reference B Quote"It is not to be wondered at, therefore, that for a long time both the five-pointed and the six-pointed stars were called by one name, the "Seal of Solomon," and that no distinction was made between them. This name is obviously related to the Jewish legend of Solomon's dominion over the spirits, and of his ring with the Ineffable Name engraved on it. These legends expanded and proliferated in a marked fashion during the Middle Ages, among Jews and Arabs alike, but the name, "Seal of Solomon," apparently originated with the Arabs."Unquote. Please see wikepedia at Reference B on the subject of this sign and the amazing array of different meanings attached in particular the Indian form of the star which is entirely different to the European reason...but may well be why it may have appeared on Indian weapons? Below an actual ring; .. The Seal of Solomon. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 11th October 2019 at 06:18 PM.

10th October 2019, 10:48 PM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	No one is seeing an half moon like me?? European half moon faces filled with cooper or brass? Absolutely not convinced that it is European... Please show me some similar blades from Europe... Nice sword by the way

10th October 2019, 11:19 PM	#2
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	ohhh what a surprise an Indian sword with an Indian blade with the same little stars... Attached Images

11th October 2019, 10:42 AM	#6
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Stu you are right the stars are abut different but enough similar to me. Jim the sword that I posted is not mine but the whole blade is absolutely Indian (the cut, the ricasso, the yelman) and if you search a bit you will find hundred of them and dozen with the little stars. Indians copied European blades. The man in the moon on Stu's blade is very different from the European blades that I have with the same "moon face". I will be very happy if Stu's sword has an European blade. But please brings me evidences. Now Jim look at the post of a guy called McDougall http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...olingen+Blades Post 28: this one seems to me a serious contender and then maybe a proof that your blade Stu is European... OR Caucasian!!! Caucasian sounds good to me... Attached Images

11th October 2019, 06:20 PM	#11
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	NOTE IT IS AN Indian FORM Please see wikepedia at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexagram on the subject of this sign and the amazing array of different meanings attached in particular the Indian form of the star which is entirely different to the European reason...but may well be why it may have appeared on Indian weapons?