Help on mark on Italian sword ca. 1580

[Jens Nordlunde]

Now that the town of Belluno has been mentioned, I think it would be interesting to show a blade from this town - although the sword is from Deccan 17th century..
The sword is a firangi, meaning wit a foreign blade, and the inscription says XX CIVIDAL D BELUN XX - which means 'The City of Belluno'.

[Jim McDougall]

Jens, thank you so much for this entry!!!
This is a magnificent example, and I forgot our discussions on this some years back. This example inscription was the first I had learned of Italian blades being inscribed with specific city, indicating this may have belonged to perhaps a city guard or militia unit, in this case Belluno.

Naturally our reaction is to recall the famed Andrea Ferara, who has been steeped in mystery for literally centuries, is now known to have actually been a working swordsmith in the last quarter of the 16th c.

Belluno was one of the number of well known blade making cities in the Veneto sphere, which seems to extended as far as Milan, Brescia and Ferara (interestingly not the city where either Andrea or his brother Donato worked).

Of note are the 'X's enclosing the wording, an affectation often seen on Solingen blades, and often with the ANDREA FERARA name, known to have been spuriously applied there for blades destined for Scotland.

It is fascinating learning more on these Italian blades, and most interesting to try to determine the aspects of their notable presence as 'firangi' in the swords of India. While we know there was a considerable conduit of German blades into India, less is known on the blades from Italy, which I don't think had as much direct trade with India...….or did they?

[Jens Nordlunde]

Jim, you are welcome and yes it is quite interesting.
Belluno is in the south of Tirol, in the Dolomits in northern Italy, and at the time it was under Veneziano control. Te town was famous for sword smiths like Andrea Ferrara, Pietro Formicano and others. To this comes that in the Dolomits there are a number of iron mines from where they got the raw material.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Jim, you are welcome and yes it is quite interesting.
Belluno is in the south of Tirol, in the Dolomits in northern Italy, and at the time it was under Veneziano control. Te town was famous for sword smiths like Andrea Ferrara, Pietro Formicano and others. To this comes that in the Dolomits there are a number of iron mines from where they got the raw material.

You bet Jens. As I mentioned we know that German blades were often imported into India (through Mahratha ports I believe) but were trade contacts from Italy active in any direct contact as well? The number of Italian blades seem almost incidental in comparison to German, yet we know the sickle marks (regarded as Genoan) were widely copied on Indian blades.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Jim, you are welcome and yes it is quite interesting.
Belluno is in the south of Tirol, in the Dolomits in northern Italy, and at the time it was under Veneziano control. Te town was famous for sword smiths like Andrea Ferrara, Pietro Formicano and others. To this comes that in the Dolomits there are a number of iron mines from where they got the raw material.

Jens,

It’s absolutely fascinating that sword or at least blade making in old days tend to be concentrated to locations with iron, wood and water. Also, in the area of the alps sword making is an ancient craft where the Celts were known to have possessed the secrets of how to make objects out of iron. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that this is where swords were mostly produced until 19thC when they could be mass produced. I wish we knew more about the sword smiths and their ancient craft.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Victrix,


It was not always so. In Marv in Khorasan NW of India, they did not have iron ores, nor wood, so they had to import it, and they made fantastic sword blades. Ann Feuerback was there when they excavated a sword from the 9th century.
It is very interesting to resarch these old sword makers, but the informations are far between, and not always easy to find.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Jim,


It is hard to say if the Italians had a big export of sword blades, but I am sure they did export these blades to India.
When the Europeans copied each others stamps, and the Indians copied the different european stamps, so it can be very haard to say. However, we do see hints of Indian blades with European stamps, so these must have been copies of European blades.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

... It is hard to say if the Italians had a big export of sword blades, but I am sure they did export these blades to India...

Well Jens, all those bundles of blades taken by the Portuguese (firangi) for trade in India, were in fact of Italian manufacture.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Jim,


It is hard to say if the Italians had a big export of sword blades, but I am sure they did export these blades to India.
When the Europeans copied each others stamps, and the Indians copied the different european stamps, so it can be very haard to say. However, we do see hints of Indian blades with European stamps, so these must have been copies of European blades.

Very well noted Jens, with the cross use of markings whether punzones, phrases or names or combinations thereof, it is hard to say exactly which sources of blades were traded into India. I suppose it would be a matter as well of what period we are considering, and into which regions. The major ports of Italy, Genoa and Venice, of course carried blades among their goods into many entrepots in their trade networks, and within those probably mingled with shipments continuing to India.

While the Portuguese of course were notably the key early European contact traders into India (hence the term firangi was often taken to mean 'Portuguese' rather than the broader 'foreign'), my question was pertaining to any 'direct' trade with either of those Italian states.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Jim,


It is hard to say if the Italians had a big export of sword blades, but I am sure they did export these blades to India.
When the Europeans copied each others stamps, and the Indians copied the different european stamps, so it can be very haard to say. However, we do see hints of Indian blades with European stamps, so these must have been copies of European blades.

For some reason, I am always of the impression that Italy was not particularly involved in any sort of mass export of blades. Most of what I have seen in accounts of Italian swords are that the blade makers produced their blades, which were then sent to hilt makers (for example in Brescia etc) and the sword in entirety was then to the client or armourer.
Many swords in the Wallace collection are seen with Italian blades but German hilts, sometimes even vice versa, so perhaps these were simply remounting exchanges.

I think the most prevalent evidence for exported blades would have been the Genoan (and surrounding cities) which is suggested by the noted copy of the famed sickle marks, which are notably copied by many Indian artisans on their blades.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Jim,


It is hard to say if the Italians had a big export of sword blades, but I am sure they did export these blades to India.
When the Europeans copied each others stamps, and the Indians copied the different european stamps, so it can be very haard to say. However, we do see hints of Indian blades with European stamps, so these must have been copies of European blades.

The link mentions Polish sources suggesting Russian exports of captured Polish swords produced in Italy and Styria to the Caucasus and Central Asia. Possibly another source of these Firengi (i.e. European) blades?

http://www.antiques.com/classified/A...an-Talwar-Hilt