Help on mark on Italian sword ca. 1580

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

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In these areas and with this brisk competition and developmental innovation among blade producers, it seems inevitable that descriptive terms, derived from various vernacular terms, would become applied collectively in many cases outside the original specific.

Here in Texas (as you noted) there is of course a pretty good spectrum of typically large bladed knives, but regardless of intricacies in character of features, the broad term 'Bowie' reigns in the vernacular.
The Spanish cognate 'cuchillo' to the Italian 'coltello', is probably more confined to the Mexican vernacular, but even there other slang terms often apply.

Getting back to the case at hand from the OP, looking at maps of the region of Veneto (where Venice is capital) the other locations in this region and contiguous proximity include Belluno ( in north with Ferrara to the south) of course aligned with the mysterious Andrea Ferara; Milan to the west; and naturally Brescia as you have well noted. ……...the potential for cross use of the stamped marks we are discussing is not only likely, but probable.

While the makers names associated with these locations are of course well known in some cases, but the numbers of workers and shops not well known must have been notable.

Jim, here are some tidbits to address the points raised in your post.

1. Terminology and linguistics can get understandably complex in Italy, which was essentially a conglomeration of states and subcultures during the centuries between the fall of the Roman Empire and the 1870 reunification. For that time, different regions were fought over and ruled by all sorts of foreign powers, from the Moors to the French, the Germanic Holy Roman Empire, and Spain - so you have the added dimension of alien ruling classes on top of the local yokels who were there for donkey years before. Not to mention Genoese and Venetian merchants and mercenaries returning home and bringing foreign habits with them. The vernacular literature took many generations to move away from classical and vulgar Latin to what we would recognize as Italian today.

2. Because of a well developed guild system (especially in the north), a good number of Italian armorers working over the past 5-odd centuries has been documented. Some early makers of plate armor are known only by their initials, but their distinguishing marks have been recorded and we can date their products stylistically. Modern authors have done a lot to make this info available to us. For a general intro, Enzio Malatesta's Armi ed Armaioli d'Italia (Rome, 1946) is comprehensive and is occasionally available at auction. Carlo deVita's Armaioli Romani (Rome, 1970) covers just the region of Latium. For firearms, there is a wealth of info in Der Neue Stöckel and in Nolfo di Carpegna's Brescian Firearms (hooray, at last a book in English! , Rome, 1997)

3. There was a lot of specialization in the pre-industrial Italian arms manufacturing trade, fine arms were often designed and put together by gunsmiths and cutlers using components sourced from special artisans known to them and their customers. Certain towns with their guilds sometimes specialized in the extreme: Caino, Bergamo, and Belluno were famed for their blade workshops, their products sent to Milan, Venice, and all over to be hilted. Celalba, in the Papal States, was known for flintlocks of a specific design. Pistoia (from which the word pistol is supposedly derived) mostly made gun barrels, and lots of them.

4. Andrea Ferrara .. legendary, almost iconic especially in the universe of Scottish broadswords! Yet as enigmatic in his own way, as the Passau wolf. Worthy of a separate forum thread. How 'bout it , Jim?

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you again Philip! as always fantastic detail and insight into the true character and circumstances of these sword producing regions, their marks and guilds etc.
Great note on the enigmatic Andrea Ferara, whose mystery remains a matter of debate and contention as much as ever. Indeed I would think a thread on that topic would be worthy of entry as you suggest, but some more research and consideration seems prudent before such an attempt is made.

[Jim McDougall]

Actually in seeking more on Andrea Ferara for the discussion Philip has suggested, and searching through notes, passim, I found some interesting reference to the Italian mark of the OP here.
It is apparently termed MARCA A MOSCA and colloquially 'the twig'.
According to a discussion post from 2010 (Javier Ramos, SFI, 5/24/10) this markings was apparently an arsenal mark from Venice.
It occurs on many sword forms from zweihanders to falchions and of course storta.

He offers two references as support (and plz forgive my attempt at rewriting these Italian titles):
1. "Musei e Gallerie di Milano. Museo Poldi Pezzoli Armi Europee del Medeiro al'eta Moserna II Armi del Vicino Oriente".
by Paolo Slavich , Milano, 1986
2. "Musei e Gallerie di Milano Museo d' Arti Applicate"
by Piersergio Allevi, Milano, 1988

These references seemed remarkably intricate and suggest research well founded, but I have not corroborated further. Still the idea of the notable occurrence of this mark in singular on various blades and typically blade center in upper third of blade does seem plausibly something used in such 'arsenal' manner.
Its inclusion in the varied groupings associated with either makers, shops or locations as seen in "Armi Bianchi Italiene" cannot be readily explained but the presumed arsenal use seems to have been mid to late 16th c.

The thing I would question as far as the 'arsenal' use, is that a number of these singular use 'twig' marks occur on rapier blades, c. 1580s, and these are typically regarded in this period as very non military weapons.

I hope this might help in further research Ray.

[cornelistromp]

I noticed this storta some time on a German website , I believe it was offered by Historica Arma and/or Fricker, did you acguire it recently ?

best,

[fernando]

It looks like a LOT OF INK has been spent in the discussion of this mark, both in origin as in purpose ... as well as in terminology.
Origin is consensually accepted as that from the Veneto area, while its purpose is 'arguably' to identify an arsenal. While in one hand Javier Ramos (for the case) textually says "I would have to check if my memory fails again but I remember vaguely that the "marca a mosca" (fly mark) is not an armourer mark but an arsenal mark (Venice)", On the other hand, the fact that the mark appears either single or in trios, does denote that, for an (one) arsenal mark, is somehow inconsistent. Also interesting that there seems to be an intention to place the central of these (triple) marks in a different position. As for the mark naming, beyond the english connotation "twigs", i wonder why some Italian sources call it MOSCA (fly), and Boccia & Coelho, who are not ignaros in these things, prefer to call it FERRI DI MULINO.


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[Jim McDougall]

The ink spot has proven invaluable in networking to other discussions and threads concerning these Italian marks, which as shown may be referred to as 'twigs' or 'marca a mosca'.
My reason for bringing up the suggestion of the single mark being a possible arsenal mark for Venice is that it was an interesting possibility which seemed worthy of mention in a discussion with notable scope in examining these.

As I noted in my previous post, the aspects of this suggestion in which I might dispute the 'arsenal' possibility would be that these turn up on rapier blades, distinctly a civilian weapon of these times.
Also, I would wonder, which arsenal, that of the Doge of Venice? or perhaps the Papal arsenal ? or were there more?

I also realize that I have suggested that these 'twig' (for the sake of discussion) marks were exclusively Italian, which is incorrect, as in my thread of June 2010 I noted the fly marks (aka twigs) were indeed duplicated in Germany. Clearly the German makers applied the known Italian marks spuriously in the same fashion as those of Spain.

Clearly there will be multiple colloquial terms used for these and similar marks in various regions and transliterations. It is of course one of the frustrating perils of the study of arms over many centuries and in many cultures with many languages. I think Philip well described this situation with regard to Italian circumstances as case in point.

There is also the circumstance of assigning certain marks to certain areas in addition to attempting to align them to a particular maker, which has its own futility. In Italy, the Veneto regions encompassed not only Venice, the capital and port, but Caino, Brescia, Belluno, Ferrara and others even Milan.

In the regions of Genoa, which included Lucca and others, it seems the so called sickle marks became the known device inexorably linked to Genoa, yet some authorities believe its use began in Lucca. In those western regions of North Italy the 'sickle' device also became used in multiple and oddly configured arrangements on blades. It has often been suggested that the Genoan association was due to that being the departure port for the blades of these regions.

With these instances, it would seem that these distinctive central devices may have become collectively associated with regions as described. It is notable that in many instances of works on weapons, a mark of these types is often associated with the region to which the sword it occurs upon is attributed. Thus a sword mounted in Brescia, but with a blade from other locations in Veneto, becomes Brescian.

As an interesting anomaly, having distinguished the marca a mosca (twig) to Veneto regions, and the 'Genoan' sickle marks to the centers there, a blade curiously found on a straight blade tulwar has the sickle marks with the twig in the center. Now theres a conundrum!!

[Victrix]

Great thread! As far as I’m aware the Venice arsenal marks would be either a C.X. for Consiglio dei Dieci or the Lion of St. Mark. So it seems to me that the twig mark must be an identifier of origin for the purchaser and seller alike. It might also have been something of a quality standard mark that it had passed tests by a guild. Marca a Mosca is probably a descriptive term (like “twig” mark). I think Fernando is onto something when pointing to Boccia & Coelho mentioning the mark as ferri di mulino (iron mill) marks. On German swords carrying the twig marks you might consider the possibility that these were North Italian blades with fake Solingen marks, rather than the other way around.

I wish I could find more to read on this in the English language (like Gotti’s Caino book!). You may find this of interest: https://www.hema-minsk2019.org/base_...ibition-part-3. It mentions a Beluni knot.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

I noticed this storta some time on a German website , I believe it was offered by Historica Arma and/or Fricker, did you acguire it recently ?

best,

I questioned that myself earlier. It was on the Historica site, as a two handed storta, now taken down after sale.

Apparently the OP, BladeMan, bought it from the noted website recently and posted it here before they updated their site. .

[BladeMan]

That‘s a lot of interesting and helpful information here, thank you all. Much appreciated.

Measurements are in post #11, i copied them again:
Length is 92 cm with a 70 cm blade, PoB is 13 cm and the weight is 1011 grams


And yes, i bought this sword from Historica Arma a few weeks ago and the dealer forgot to take it off the website.

[Jim McDougall]

I forgot to add to my earlier post, the image of the ferri di mulino, which is the mill rind component of blade making mill machinery which may be the pictographic device apparently used as a symbol represented in these marks (of course with notable variations). The varied interpretations of this basic symbol may account for the unusual terms describing them, such as the 'fly' or 'twig'.

In the attachment is the heraldic version from Italian coat of arms.

As mentioned earlier, another application of such mill machinery used symbolically in blade makers markings is the cog wheel, which if I understand seems more used in German context.
These are more of a sphere with dentated lines extended from it in a surround like sun with rays, and this of course often seen as a solar symbol.

It seems that in highly regarded work such as the Wallace Collection catalog James Mann refers to these markings as 'makers marks', which in my impression does align them with certain makers. However there was so much cross use of these devices by various makers, as well as the deviation or use in different number and configuration, aligning these to a particular maker is in my view, typically most unlikely.

Naturally there are many makers marks known assigned to specific makers from recorded material, and those are well listed in the compendiums we commonly use.