Older Toledo? Blade, Makers Marks I.D.

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent catch Norman!!!
It is always exciting to see portraiture with representation of a sword being studied, and to see these threads remaining active as new information is found.
Presently 'on the move' so resources not handy, but I wanted to make an entry anyway.
The Rosslyn name is highly represented in the complexities of the Masonic lore and this portrait of course clearly is profoundly of Masonic context.

While there was some great discussion here before on this, it will be great to see if we might be able to elaborate more now with this wonderful image.

[Jim McDougall]

Still intrigued by this Norman, and the complexities of Freemasonry and the Masons, Knight Templars and all the fraternal and religious organizations and military orders are challenging at best.

While we are assuming this portrait is of the 2nd Earl of Rosslyn, possibly it ay be his son, the 3rd Earl of Rosslyn, Gen. James Alexander St.Clair-Erskine (1802-1866).

It seems that while Freemasonry is notably disconnected from the Knights Templars and other medieval military orders chronologically, in Scotland such orders were never actually abolished or disbanded. They did seem to remain secretly however.
Apparently from 1689 the Scottish Knights Templar became openly known.
In about 1825 they adopted the white mantle and the 'Red Cross of Constantine'.
In 1836 the Supreme Enclave of Knights Templar (Militi Templi Scotia) became removed from Freemasonry and accepted members outside that distinct membership.

Apparently the Rosslyn Chapel, which dates from medieval times, is owned by the Sinclair family as Earls of Rosslyn. In 1842 Queen Victoria expressed dismay at the decay of the structure, and in 1862 restoration was begun by architect David Bryce of Edinburgh, a Freemason.
This was on behalf of James Alexander St.Clair-Erskine, 3rd Earl of Rosslyn.

There has been a great deal of speculation, lore and often fanciful tales of connections between the Knights Templar and Freemasonry and the Rosslyn Chapel, however much of this is discounted by Robert L.D. Cooper, curator of the Grand Lodge Of Scotland museum.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Casaubon.
Thanks for your interest and input.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Jim,
I have been in touch with the London Museum of Freemasony and I attach part of their reply.

The crown above the cross is an interesting feature, the English Templar orders almost universally have an Imperial Crown, the style on the sword is only used by Mount Calvary Preceptory. The French however use it much more frequently.


Thanks as usual for your valued input and I hope the above might throw a little more light on this piece. Scottish Freemasonary is of course quite distinct in many respects and I hope to pursue that aspect a little more.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Jim,
I have been in touch with the London Museum of Freemasony and I attach part of their reply.

The crown above the cross is an interesting feature, the English Templar orders almost universally have an Imperial Crown, the style on the sword is only used by Mount Calvary Preceptory. The French however use it much more frequently.


Thanks as usual for your valued input and I hope the above might throw a little more light on this piece. Scottish Freemasonary is of course quite distinct in many respects and I hope to pursue that aspect a little more.
My Regards,
Norman.

Thank you very much Norman! I really appreciate this information and always enjoy the opportunity to learn more on the esoterica of Freemasonry, especially the Scottish rites. I think that in the historical scope of things, the fiber of Freemasonry is often overlooked somewhat.
What has always been interesting to me is that Masonic brotherhood has often transcended nationality and political persuasions, for example the distinct connections between French Lodges and Scottish, even at times the English.

For example in British officers swords, the notable c. 1780s officers straight sabre (spadroon) with five ball hilt features on the guard. These hilts soon became popular on French officers swords as well, and they termed the swords l'Anglaise which was of course profoundly atypical for the French. They do not seem to have 'copied' the sword hilts of anyone else, especially the British.
In research many years ago, I believed that the five ball feature may have represented that number keenly symbolic in Masonic tradition, and that the sharing of these features may have had joined Masonic convention between the two countries. Naturally, that always remained a matter of contention, and even Brian Robson ("Swords of the British Army" , 1975) disagreed with my suggestion.

The great book by Joe Marino, "The American Fraternal Sword" (2008) as well as the "Man at Arms" article by Hamilton (do not recall cite but think it was 1979) are excellent resources for Masonic sword detail.

We have had some discussions which had some great dialogue despite the usual contentions which inevitably arise in esoteric topics such as Freemasonry over the years.

It remains an intriguing and seldom addressed topic, which is why I always enjoy seeing examples such as yours Norman! Thank you again!

[Norman McCormick]

Thanks Jim as always for your valued insights and interest.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

Quid pro quo, Norman!
Yours are as valuable to me in ever learning here.
All the best
Jim