Blades without a scabbard!

MForde · 6th September 2019, 11:53 AM

Some collectors see a scabbard as vital but I have never cared that much for their presence, viewing them as a bonus only. Perhaps this is because I've always liked to display my swords with the blades naked and so I have a pile of labelled scabbards propped forlornly in a corner!

Of course, there are some exceptions to this (a brass scabbard on a British Victorian sword is sometimes more important than the sword itself, for example).

Martin Lubojacky · 6th September 2019, 12:43 PM

Hi,

For me it is important to have the item "complete". Regardless of whether it is Austro_Hungarian sabre (the value is higher) or e.g. Salampasu short sword. In the case of some of African weapons the scabbard presents very nice example of African handicraft and culture. So I prefer "with scabbard" and from this reason I can wait for years for the complete item, or I buy old damaged scabbard and repair it. In some cases I buy scabbard even separately - but must be original. I never make new scabbards. In some cases of African weapons it is nearly impossible to reach original scabbard and - nothing can be done then
Martin

roanoa · 6th September 2019, 03:09 PM

Well, on July 2007 I posted a discussion on the subject under: Ethiopian scabbard: to fake or not to fake. Check it out. Ron

Hombre · 6th September 2019, 05:14 PM

Very interesting thread, Ron!
Thank you so very much for pointing it out for me and I must say that I am amazed about your skills. Personally I must admit that I have my thumb in the middle of the hand so to speak....

If I can choose, of course I prefer to have the scabbard together with the blade when I shall buy something but if it is an old interesting blade I do not hesitate to buy it without the scabbard too.... Things can happen with old scabbards so it is how it is....

Best,
Stefan

Jim McDougall · 6th September 2019, 05:50 PM

A most interesting, and unusual topic Stefan.
Scabbard or no scabbard.........it is really a matter of preference it some ways.
In my early collecting days, I was able to afford regulation type swords which were without scabbard. These were deemed 'incomplete' by collectors usually so dealers would reduce price accordingly.

I later discovered (to my dismay and shock) that there were actually collectors who COLLECTED scabbards alone! which I totally could not understand.
In many cases of swords without scabbards, discounting the idea of them being collected away from the sword itself, the strong possibility of the sword being a battlefield pick up after being separated from the owner in combat, the scabbard usually still with him.

With ethnographic weapons, there are typically more pragmatic situations.
The kampilan for example, is typically fitted with a break away scabbard, slats of wood bound together which are sheared away as the sword hits first strike, without being drawn.
Many cultures regard the scabbard as a 'house', where the sword lives, and nomenclature uses according terms.

The idea of protection of the blade is also key. The Japanese typically store their blades in shira saya mountings, including a scabbard of plain wood which will protect from moisture.
Regular scabbards, often with decoration and treatments which attract moisture were deadly to these amazing blades as corrosion was inevitably attracted by these.

On regulation swords, one of the most intriguing cases was in India, where troopers were shocked by the effective potential of the deadly sharp blades of Indian warriors. It turned out they were actually old British blades, highly honed and kept well oiled in wooden scabbards.
The metal scabbards not only were noisy, gleamed in the light revealing positions, attracted moisture , but dulled the blades.

For me, if displaying a sword, the scabbard is simply extra and takes more space. If the sword is an investment, then having the original scabbard is key.
For ethnographic swords, as long as blade is maintained, no need for scabbard.

Battara · 6th September 2019, 06:18 PM

However, for me the scabbard is part of the sword/dagger. It is a part of the culture. So that is why I make scabbards (as well as other things) and others have sent me pieces to make scabbards to match. I base my designs on the research I do on a particular culture, tribe, people, etc. and their examples.

Some would say that my work is an interpretation, but my counter is "so is the work of the original craftsmen."

Martin Lubojacky · 6th September 2019, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roanoa

Well, on July 2007 I posted a discussion on the subject under: Ethiopian scabbard: to fake or not to fake. Check it out. Ron

This is very, very nice and skilled work !!! (btw the sickle weapon from the allied thread should allegedly be Borana machete from the Kenyan-Ethiopian borderland)

But I think in the case of old African weapons the patina on the scabbard is bonus. (In I think two Ethiopian cases I successfully adapted another old scabbard with a little bit different curvature and one even shrinked by using ethanol (wrap the scabbard with soaked textile and put it into plastic bag, and push the blade step by step deeper and deeper every ca 2 days ...)

kahnjar1 · 6th September 2019, 08:54 PM

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4951
Here is the link to Ron's 2007 post mentioned above.

Helleri · 7th September 2019, 08:23 AM

With the few things I've collected I've always made sure it comes with some sort of scabbard that seems original. Even if the scabbard is damaged, it feels like half a piece without one. The only exception would be my Collins and co. machete, which I made a sheath for (two actually. A first basic on and a later more advanced one).

Though I can make at least a sheath if not a scabbard (I do make a distinction and it's a long conversation i recall having here before) if I must. But I'm at the point with my organic crafting that I might even like to get a project blade at some point to make a simple scabbard for.

Victrix · 7th September 2019, 03:39 PM

For me personally the blade of the sword is the most important thing without doubt, but then I collect pre-19thC swords. I love if they have fullers, makers’ marks, inscriptions, etc. The grip and guard are there for functionality and usually reflect fashions etc so are moderately interesting. For me the scabbards are mere accessories and I’m sure were regarded as such by the owners. They were just there to carry and protect the sword when not in use. I’m sure many scabbards were replaced several times during the useful life of the sword. My purpose for collecting is mainly historical and the scabbard is usually not important for me when I decide to buy. I just want to handle and care for the sword and display it, with or without scabbard. Having said that, sometimes the scabbards can be beautiful and complement the sword. From an investment point of view I’m sure the price benefits from the scabbard as the item is more “complete” with it.

6th September 2019, 08:54 PM	#8
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,789	Direct Link to 2007 post by Ron http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4951 Here is the link to Ron's 2007 post mentioned above.

6th September 2019, 11:53 AM	#1
MForde Member Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: UK Posts: 36	Some collectors see a scabbard as vital but I have never cared that much for their presence, viewing them as a bonus only. Perhaps this is because I've always liked to display my swords with the blades naked and so I have a pile of labelled scabbards propped forlornly in a corner! Of course, there are some exceptions to this (a brass scabbard on a British Victorian sword is sometimes more important than the sword itself, for example).

6th September 2019, 12:43 PM	#2
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	Hi, For me it is important to have the item "complete". Regardless of whether it is Austro_Hungarian sabre (the value is higher) or e.g. Salampasu short sword. In the case of some of African weapons the scabbard presents very nice example of African handicraft and culture. So I prefer "with scabbard" and from this reason I can wait for years for the complete item, or I buy old damaged scabbard and repair it. In some cases I buy scabbard even separately - but must be original. I never make new scabbards. In some cases of African weapons it is nearly impossible to reach original scabbard and - nothing can be done then Martin

6th September 2019, 03:09 PM	#3
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 241	Well, on July 2007 I posted a discussion on the subject under: Ethiopian scabbard: to fake or not to fake. Check it out. Ron

6th September 2019, 05:14 PM	#4
Hombre Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 232	Very interesting thread, Ron! Thank you so very much for pointing it out for me and I must say that I am amazed about your skills. Personally I must admit that I have my thumb in the middle of the hand so to speak.... If I can choose, of course I prefer to have the scabbard together with the blade when I shall buy something but if it is an old interesting blade I do not hesitate to buy it without the scabbard too.... Things can happen with old scabbards so it is how it is.... Best, Stefan

6th September 2019, 05:50 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,292	A most interesting, and unusual topic Stefan. Scabbard or no scabbard.........it is really a matter of preference it some ways. In my early collecting days, I was able to afford regulation type swords which were without scabbard. These were deemed 'incomplete' by collectors usually so dealers would reduce price accordingly. I later discovered (to my dismay and shock) that there were actually collectors who COLLECTED scabbards alone! which I totally could not understand. In many cases of swords without scabbards, discounting the idea of them being collected away from the sword itself, the strong possibility of the sword being a battlefield pick up after being separated from the owner in combat, the scabbard usually still with him. With ethnographic weapons, there are typically more pragmatic situations. The kampilan for example, is typically fitted with a break away scabbard, slats of wood bound together which are sheared away as the sword hits first strike, without being drawn. Many cultures regard the scabbard as a 'house', where the sword lives, and nomenclature uses according terms. The idea of protection of the blade is also key. The Japanese typically store their blades in shira saya mountings, including a scabbard of plain wood which will protect from moisture. Regular scabbards, often with decoration and treatments which attract moisture were deadly to these amazing blades as corrosion was inevitably attracted by these. On regulation swords, one of the most intriguing cases was in India, where troopers were shocked by the effective potential of the deadly sharp blades of Indian warriors. It turned out they were actually old British blades, highly honed and kept well oiled in wooden scabbards. The metal scabbards not only were noisy, gleamed in the light revealing positions, attracted moisture , but dulled the blades. For me, if displaying a sword, the scabbard is simply extra and takes more space. If the sword is an investment, then having the original scabbard is key. For ethnographic swords, as long as blade is maintained, no need for scabbard.

6th September 2019, 06:18 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	However, for me the scabbard is part of the sword/dagger. It is a part of the culture. So that is why I make scabbards (as well as other things) and others have sent me pieces to make scabbards to match. I base my designs on the research I do on a particular culture, tribe, people, etc. and their examples. Some would say that my work is an interpretation, but my counter is "so is the work of the original craftsmen."

7th September 2019, 08:23 AM	#9
Helleri Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Chino, CA. Posts: 219	With the few things I've collected I've always made sure it comes with some sort of scabbard that seems original. Even if the scabbard is damaged, it feels like half a piece without one. The only exception would be my Collins and co. machete, which I made a sheath for (two actually. A first basic on and a later more advanced one). Though I can make at least a sheath if not a scabbard (I do make a distinction and it's a long conversation i recall having here before) if I must. But I'm at the point with my organic crafting that I might even like to get a project blade at some point to make a simple scabbard for.

7th September 2019, 03:39 PM	#10
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	For me personally the blade of the sword is the most important thing without doubt, but then I collect pre-19thC swords. I love if they have fullers, makers’ marks, inscriptions, etc. The grip and guard are there for functionality and usually reflect fashions etc so are moderately interesting. For me the scabbards are mere accessories and I’m sure were regarded as such by the owners. They were just there to carry and protect the sword when not in use. I’m sure many scabbards were replaced several times during the useful life of the sword. My purpose for collecting is mainly historical and the scabbard is usually not important for me when I decide to buy. I just want to handle and care for the sword and display it, with or without scabbard. Having said that, sometimes the scabbards can be beautiful and complement the sword. From an investment point of view I’m sure the price benefits from the scabbard as the item is more “complete” with it.