Hindu Armour and the Katar?

Jim McDougall · 28th April 2006, 11:36 PM

Hi Brian and Jens,
I cant seem to display the link posted, and cant recall the specific discussion you reference, however, the data on the 'maushtika' was actually information found long ago in the venerable backbone of my library, Sir Richard Burton's "Book of the Sword" (1884, on p.215).
In this single sentenced reference, Burton notes, "...the maushtika (fist sword,stiletto) is only a span long, and thus very handy for all kinds of movements".
Ironically Brian, Burton's reference appears to be that of Professor Gustav Oppert, who published his "On the Weapons etc.of the Ancient Hindus" in London in 1880. It seems that Burton cited the same reference to the maushtika that you note. In checking other resources to find supporting or collaborating references to a weapon with this term, they all cite the Burton reference, without further notation or data.
Since Opperts work was not illustrated and we have simply a narrative description of the 'maushtika' , it does not offer more than suggestion that implies a possible proto-katar by the note terming it a 'fist' weapon. However it does certainly present strong plausibility.
It would be interesting to find this term or weapon described alternatively to its appearance in various references all borrowing from the same original source.
In Burton the text suggests that Oppert may have derived the material from Book III of the Nitiprakashika (op.cit. p.214).

Brian, your 'playing' with arms is where the real knowledge comes from !!!
The 'academic' references are simply support when correctly applied ...
so keep your observations comin'....puuullleeeze!!!

All best regards,
Jim

B.I · 29th April 2006, 08:27 AM

hi jim,
ok, so it was burton that beat me to it

it was oppert's book that i read, and the book is the translation of parts of 2 hindu manuscripts (the weapons/army references), the Nitiprakashika and the Sukraniti. the former was unknown prior to his involvement and it seems it was quite a find of the day.
to be honest, jim, i actually enjoy both reading and playing, and find myself researching more than collecting these days. i dont call myself academic due to a short memory span and low boredom threshold. also, most academics dont go out much, are antisocial, exceedingly dull and look like their mothers still dress them

Jens Nordlunde · 29th April 2006, 05:03 PM

A reprint of Gustav Oppert’s book can be had very cheaply on the net – should anyone be interested.

BTW 1 span is = 12 angulas = 1 vatasti = 9 inches. Funny are angulas not what they call the eels in Spain – or is it baby eels? I was once served a dish in Barcelona, it was baby eels boiled in oil, and I think it was called angulas.

I have seen different ways of spelling the ‘knife’ in question. Maustika and Maushtika, but I have also seen another spelling, Maush Tika which is supposed to be a weighted glove with spike on the knuckles. As the dagger mentioned, is a dagger, and as Maush Tika is supposed to be a spiked glove, meant for hitting like a boxer do – meaning holding the closed hand pointing towards your opponent, this could mean that the dagger had a hilt, where the hand would have been held in the same way.

What I mean is, that maybe part of the word means the way you hold it, and the other part means a pointed thing or a blade. Any comments to this postulate?

Jim McDougall · 30th April 2006, 07:45 PM

Hi Brian,
It seems that the appellation 'scholar' and 'academic' became the topic of a number of altercations on the forums a number of years ago, leading to a lot of 'ouchy' feelings (very academic term

I would think modesty prevents any of us from proclaiming ourselves as being such, even though we do aspire to learn as much as we can, regardless of attention spans etc. huh? what span?

Designations blah! Don't ever change pal!!!

Jens,
Got any links for the Oppert book? I think it would be excellent to know this source as forerunner of Robert Elgood's magnificent work.
Uh, on your gourmet note.....eeeccchhh! Somehow I have never found myself craving a nice 'eelburger'

Interesting study on the terminology though.
I think you are right on the term maushtika or whatever referring mostly to the use of the weapon. It seems I recall you talking about the term referring to a spiked gauntlet ...need to find this reference. Goes back to the 'gauntlet' sword/dagger term applying to transversely gripped edged weapons.

Best regards

Jens Nordlunde · 30th April 2006, 09:13 PM

Jim, try ABEBooks and write Gustav Oppert, it will be no 9, 13 or 15 you will be interested in, depending on if you want the cheap or expensive edition – all seems to be the same and all new

.
Does angula mean eel in Spanish???

B.I · 30th April 2006, 11:03 PM

hi jens,
there is a fantastic stone sculpture of durga in its classic pose of slaying the buffulo demon in the british museum. it is dated to the 13thC and hails from orissa. durga holds an array of weapons (many hands did these old hindu dieties have) including a strange spike attached to a rectangular shield. the shield is held by a clear fist, and the spike (definately not a blade) projects down quite far, and into the demons chest.
this statue has not been published (as far as i know) and i have always thought this 'weapon' to be a possible forerunner of the pata. i wonder if instead, it can be classed as a fist dagger, although the fact that it is attached to a shield is a major factor (not mentioned by oppert in his classification of a maustika).
another unknown hindu weapon then?
hi jim,
robert does mention the maustika in his glossary, but only a very brief description, in which he cites his reference as burton.

Jim McDougall · 1st May 2006, 01:10 AM

Thanks very much Jens, I'll check Abe!! Not sure about 'angular' or what the eel word is, Spanish is a bit rusty without my handy dictionary.

Interesting notes on this shield Brian. It seems someplace in our earlier research, there was some Russian shield with dagger in the center but cannot recall location of that reference. It would seem that arming a defensive implement such as a shield with a dagger has been known in numerous instances, including the Indian 'madu' used allegedly by mendicants. Possibly the concept of transverse grip, as typically found in shields, and the thrusting dagger incorporated in a shield led to the concept of this feature in katar and pata? As always, we get to the million dollar question of where and when this innovation occurred.

Then we get to the puzzle of the so called 'manople'...the Moorish (?) thrusting, gauntlet boarding dagger seen under that heading in Stone (also found in Calvert, "Spanish Arms & Armour"). If this weapon indeed came from Spain, or anywhere in the Islamic sphere, might it have been the source for the Indian gauntlet weapons?

All the best,
Jim

30th April 2006, 09:13 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Jim, try ABEBooks and write Gustav Oppert, it will be no 9, 13 or 15 you will be interested in, depending on if you want the cheap or expensive edition – all seems to be the same and all new. Does angula mean eel in Spanish???

28th April 2006, 11:36 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Hi Brian and Jens, I cant seem to display the link posted, and cant recall the specific discussion you reference, however, the data on the 'maushtika' was actually information found long ago in the venerable backbone of my library, Sir Richard Burton's "Book of the Sword" (1884, on p.215). In this single sentenced reference, Burton notes, "...the maushtika (fist sword,stiletto) is only a span long, and thus very handy for all kinds of movements". Ironically Brian, Burton's reference appears to be that of Professor Gustav Oppert, who published his "On the Weapons etc.of the Ancient Hindus" in London in 1880. It seems that Burton cited the same reference to the maushtika that you note. In checking other resources to find supporting or collaborating references to a weapon with this term, they all cite the Burton reference, without further notation or data. Since Opperts work was not illustrated and we have simply a narrative description of the 'maushtika' , it does not offer more than suggestion that implies a possible proto-katar by the note terming it a 'fist' weapon. However it does certainly present strong plausibility. It would be interesting to find this term or weapon described alternatively to its appearance in various references all borrowing from the same original source. In Burton the text suggests that Oppert may have derived the material from Book III of the Nitiprakashika (op.cit. p.214). Brian, your 'playing' with arms is where the real knowledge comes from !!! The 'academic' references are simply support when correctly applied ... so keep your observations comin'....puuullleeeze!!! All best regards, Jim

29th April 2006, 08:27 AM	#2
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi jim, ok, so it was burton that beat me to it it was oppert's book that i read, and the book is the translation of parts of 2 hindu manuscripts (the weapons/army references), the Nitiprakashika and the Sukraniti. the former was unknown prior to his involvement and it seems it was quite a find of the day. to be honest, jim, i actually enjoy both reading and playing, and find myself researching more than collecting these days. i dont call myself academic due to a short memory span and low boredom threshold. also, most academics dont go out much, are antisocial, exceedingly dull and look like their mothers still dress them

29th April 2006, 05:03 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	A reprint of Gustav Oppert’s book can be had very cheaply on the net – should anyone be interested. BTW 1 span is = 12 angulas = 1 vatasti = 9 inches. Funny are angulas not what they call the eels in Spain – or is it baby eels? I was once served a dish in Barcelona, it was baby eels boiled in oil, and I think it was called angulas. I have seen different ways of spelling the ‘knife’ in question. Maustika and Maushtika, but I have also seen another spelling, Maush Tika which is supposed to be a weighted glove with spike on the knuckles. As the dagger mentioned, is a dagger, and as Maush Tika is supposed to be a spiked glove, meant for hitting like a boxer do – meaning holding the closed hand pointing towards your opponent, this could mean that the dagger had a hilt, where the hand would have been held in the same way. What I mean is, that maybe part of the word means the way you hold it, and the other part means a pointed thing or a blade. Any comments to this postulate?

30th April 2006, 07:45 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Hi Brian, It seems that the appellation 'scholar' and 'academic' became the topic of a number of altercations on the forums a number of years ago, leading to a lot of 'ouchy' feelings (very academic term I would think modesty prevents any of us from proclaiming ourselves as being such, even though we do aspire to learn as much as we can, regardless of attention spans etc. huh? what span? Designations blah! Don't ever change pal!!! Jens, Got any links for the Oppert book? I think it would be excellent to know this source as forerunner of Robert Elgood's magnificent work. Uh, on your gourmet note.....eeeccchhh! Somehow I have never found myself craving a nice 'eelburger' Interesting study on the terminology though. I think you are right on the term maushtika or whatever referring mostly to the use of the weapon. It seems I recall you talking about the term referring to a spiked gauntlet ...need to find this reference. Goes back to the 'gauntlet' sword/dagger term applying to transversely gripped edged weapons. Best regards

30th April 2006, 11:03 PM	#6
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi jens, there is a fantastic stone sculpture of durga in its classic pose of slaying the buffulo demon in the british museum. it is dated to the 13thC and hails from orissa. durga holds an array of weapons (many hands did these old hindu dieties have) including a strange spike attached to a rectangular shield. the shield is held by a clear fist, and the spike (definately not a blade) projects down quite far, and into the demons chest. this statue has not been published (as far as i know) and i have always thought this 'weapon' to be a possible forerunner of the pata. i wonder if instead, it can be classed as a fist dagger, although the fact that it is attached to a shield is a major factor (not mentioned by oppert in his classification of a maustika). another unknown hindu weapon then? hi jim, robert does mention the maustika in his glossary, but only a very brief description, in which he cites his reference as burton.

1st May 2006, 01:10 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Thanks very much Jens, I'll check Abe!! Not sure about 'angular' or what the eel word is, Spanish is a bit rusty without my handy dictionary. Interesting notes on this shield Brian. It seems someplace in our earlier research, there was some Russian shield with dagger in the center but cannot recall location of that reference. It would seem that arming a defensive implement such as a shield with a dagger has been known in numerous instances, including the Indian 'madu' used allegedly by mendicants. Possibly the concept of transverse grip, as typically found in shields, and the thrusting dagger incorporated in a shield led to the concept of this feature in katar and pata? As always, we get to the million dollar question of where and when this innovation occurred. Then we get to the puzzle of the so called 'manople'...the Moorish (?) thrusting, gauntlet boarding dagger seen under that heading in Stone (also found in Calvert, "Spanish Arms & Armour"). If this weapon indeed came from Spain, or anywhere in the Islamic sphere, might it have been the source for the Indian gauntlet weapons? All the best, Jim