Very unusual old keris , any ideas ?

Bob A · 18th August 2019, 12:33 AM

No expertise here either, but it has the look of bone to me.

Aside from the appearance of bone, the dagger has a utilitarian look, on which I doubt ivory would be used.

Battara · 19th August 2019, 04:00 AM

This is definitely a Moro, possibly Sulu, hilt.

Lots of trade between the Indonesian and Philippine archipelagos. I have seen Indonesian kerises owned by Moro datus.

There are many Moro kris hilts and krises that were made for children of datus. Perhaps this hilt is one of them onto a traded keris as a gift.

Jean · 19th August 2019, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob A

No expertise here either, but it has the look of bone to me.

Aside from the appearance of bone, the dagger has a utilitarian look, on which I doubt ivory would be used.

I am not sure about the hilt materials either from the pics but it is not whale bone, nor buffalo bone (which would be pitted inside), so I tend to believe that it is either marine ivory or tanduk rusa (deer antler). However the piece may be too large for being carved from deer antler.

David · 19th August 2019, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob A

No expertise here either, but it has the look of bone to me.

Aside from the appearance of bone, the dagger has a utilitarian look, on which I doubt ivory would be used.

I agree with Jean that this doesn't look quite like bone. Marine ivory is a possibility. The surface is rough and scuffy so it is difficult to clearly see the structure.
I am not aware that all ivory kris pommels were only for ceremonial weapons Bob. Certainly the more elaborate junggayan pommels on datu class kris didn't see much action, but the more simplified ivory kakatau pommels i think may well of graced the hilts of kris that saw more use.

A. G. Maisey · 20th August 2019, 01:48 PM

Those lines that are present on the sides of this material look a lot like the lines that we see on cow/buffalo/sheep horn. I think we can rule out sheep, but how about white water buffalo (kerbau) horn?

kai · 20th August 2019, 05:34 PM

Hello Alan,

No, albino water buffalo is yellowish with quite some translucence. While the delamination does resemble horn, the material does look like bone to me. There hardly is any difference to the grip which evidently is bone...

Regards,
Kai

Rick · 20th August 2019, 06:18 PM

The purchase and sale of antique marine ivory (for scrimshaw) is still legal in Massachusetts where I live.
I've seen my fair share of examples close up and that really looks like marine ivory to me.

Possibly Dugong.

kai · 20th August 2019, 09:44 PM

Hello Rick,

I would not want to exclude tooth/ivory for the pommel; however the craftsmanship is unusual, especially the rather rough finish.

From the dimensions, this is unlikely to be dugong; spermwhale is much more common in these waters/cultures (as is use of elephant sources).

Regards,
Kai

Rick · 20th August 2019, 09:58 PM

As I said in my last post 'possibly' dugong.
So if it is not dugong I still believe it to be marine ivory.
As far as craftsmanship, well I guess that depends on the individual 'Craftsman' and this particular maker barely qualifies as one.

20th August 2019, 06:18 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Two Cents The purchase and sale of antique marine ivory (for scrimshaw) is still legal in Massachusetts where I live. I've seen my fair share of examples close up and that really looks like marine ivory to me. Possibly Dugong. Attached Images

18th August 2019, 12:33 AM	#1
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 435	No expertise here either, but it has the look of bone to me. Aside from the appearance of bone, the dagger has a utilitarian look, on which I doubt ivory would be used.

19th August 2019, 04:00 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	This is definitely a Moro, possibly Sulu, hilt. Lots of trade between the Indonesian and Philippine archipelagos. I have seen Indonesian kerises owned by Moro datus. There are many Moro kris hilts and krises that were made for children of datus. Perhaps this hilt is one of them onto a traded keris as a gift.

20th August 2019, 01:48 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Those lines that are present on the sides of this material look a lot like the lines that we see on cow/buffalo/sheep horn. I think we can rule out sheep, but how about white water buffalo (kerbau) horn?

20th August 2019, 05:34 PM	#6
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Alan, No, albino water buffalo is yellowish with quite some translucence. While the delamination does resemble horn, the material does look like bone to me. There hardly is any difference to the grip which evidently is bone... Regards, Kai

20th August 2019, 09:44 PM	#8
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Rick, I would not want to exclude tooth/ivory for the pommel; however the craftsmanship is unusual, especially the rather rough finish. From the dimensions, this is unlikely to be dugong; spermwhale is much more common in these waters/cultures (as is use of elephant sources). Regards, Kai

20th August 2019, 09:58 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	As I said in my last post 'possibly' dugong. So if it is not dugong I still believe it to be marine ivory. As far as craftsmanship, well I guess that depends on the individual 'Craftsman' and this particular maker barely qualifies as one.