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Old 10th July 2019, 03:59 AM   #1
Jim McDougall
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Default Billy the Kid and the Colt Thunderer pistol

Traveling westward in Texas, became fascinated with the legend and lore of the famed Billy the kid, who was shot and killed by Pat Garrett near Fort Sumner, New Mexico on July 14,1881.
There are many controversies about 'Billy'; his name usually William Bonney or Henry Antrim but unclear; his part in the 'Lincoln County War' 1878-1881 which branded him 'outlaw'; claims it was not him killed that night, but lived to old age in Hico, Texas until his death in 1950 as "Brushy Bill' Roberts.

The only truly accepted image of Billy is the one known as the Dedrick tintype (illustrated here). Apparently in 1880 a traveling photographer was in Fort Sumner, and made a tintype of him (in four images in a sheet). These were cut into 4, and Billy gave one to his friend Dan Dedrick. This was in that family until sold in 2011. The disposition of the other three has joined the rest of the 'Blly' mysteries.

The most perplexing of these is, what became of his guns....especially his favorite, a Colt M1877, .41 cal. 'Thunderer' revolver. Clearly in the photo Billy is shown with M1873 Winchester rifle and M1873 Colt .45 Army revolver. The rifle may be accounted for, the revolver uncertain.

These were weapons he used on the range, but not about town, and the 'Thunderer' was a double action six chamber revolver. The one he is thought to have had was with a short 2.5" barrel (termed sheriffs or shopkeeper version) and in .41 cal. The grips were black rubber.

In about 1983, a New Mexico man, Pulitzer Price winning author N.Scott Momaday bought a .41 cal M1877 Thunderer at auction, with provenance to a Mexican family where it had been since getting it from Billy in 1881, after his April escape from Lincoln County courthouse.

The gun was serial #26048, and according to Colt authorities was shipped to San Francisco May 11, 1881 to N.Curry & Brother Co. From here it appears to have been acquired by John Chisum, a key figure whom Billy worked for. Apparantly Chisum gave the gun to his cook on July 4th. Billy days after was a Chisum's Pecos cattle camp and traded this gun from the cook.

He was of course killed July 14,1881.

This seems a tight course timewise for this gun to have made it from San Francisco to traders in New Mexico, then to Chisum, and to Billy, all in two months. If this model gun was Billy's 'favorite' , he must have had time to develop that affinity with another one? as he hardly had time to 'get acquainted' with this one in ten days in July before his death.

While some 'gunfighters' such as John Wesley Hardin (in El Paso areas) used these M1877 (the .38 was called lightning; the .41 cal. Thunderer), these were actually troublesome as their double action feature often failed in the trigger action.....rendering it single action after all.

So is this gun (photo att.) possibly authentic? even with the most tenuous trail of provenance? or is there another M1877 out there, which prompted the notion that this gun was Billy's favorite?

We should be in Fort Sumner in two days, hoping possibly the museum there might have some ideas, and maybe even a 'thunderer'
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Old 10th July 2019, 12:54 PM   #2
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Default The Dedrick ferrotype

Jim, i notice that you show a picture of Billy in a let handed posture.
Am i surprised that you miss the fact that he was right handed ?
... and the reason for this recurrent misjudgement is due to such picture having been made with the period ferrotype technique, which produced reversed images. As written by historians James D. Horan and Paul Sann, and confirmed by former curator Clyde Jeavons, William Bonney was right handed. Not to speak that knowledge people have attended to the Winchester positioning (loading gate/receiver) and have come to the same conclusion

... Unless you know of some opposing evidence ...

.
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Old 10th July 2019, 03:44 PM   #3
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Thank you for the observation and those details.
Actually I worked at finding the correct image with him holding the Winchester in his right hand, as I frankly got tired of the back and forth over this detail and wanted to avoid spending more time with it.

The photo I posted, unless I am severely disoriented, shows him holding the rifle in his right hand. If I am not mistaken the image you show has the left hand posture. I must say that I am impressed with your thorough detail and references in the rebuttal however.

Apparently photo historians revealed that the reversal situation in the tintype (also known as ferrotype) was the indeed the case as they noticed his waistcoat buttons and belt buckle were reversed as well in the original image.

I really do appreciate your reading and responding to my post. I put some time and thought into it, and thought I would share it here as I am presently in these areas and trying to learn more on the 'Billy the Kid' mystery.

I am hoping to find more on why these 'Thunderer' pistols were suggested to be Billy's 'favorite' as the only one he seems to have had was 'possibly' the one previously noted (known as the Momaday pistol). ..which he could have only had for 10 days.

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Old 10th July 2019, 04:10 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
... The photo I posted, unless I am severely disoriented, shows him holding the rifle in his right hand.

Precisely Jim; the rifle held with his right hand and the holster/pistol on the left side, close to his 'vacant' hand, as per the tricky ferrotype 'negative'. Long time i have read about this often discussed particularity which, being linked to such famous person, is not a detail but the detail.
Another bizarre situation is the one connected with his preference for the 1877 double action. Could it be that Billy, a person having to rely on this kind of tool in his daily life, was not aware that such gun model was a complete fiasco. Maybe; a risk apparently also taken by Pat Garret, said to have owned an engraved .41 of the same type.
However in a different but plausible approach, if you are a trade dealer and need to publicize your stuff, which best way you may get hold of ? announce that the thing you are looking to sell is preferred buy such and such big stars ... just like nowadays.
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Old 10th July 2019, 04:29 PM   #5
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Hi Jim, Fernando,
This previous discussion may have some relevance. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ghlight=bulldog. The calibre is most likely the now defunct 44 American S&W or the equally obsolete 442/44 Webley.

My Regards,
Norman.
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Old 10th July 2019, 05:37 PM   #6
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Good shot Norman .

What i read in the time ...
Most likely, the Colt Double Action revolver of 1877 was a response to the introduction of the Webley Bulldog pistol in 1872, which was already being imported into the U.S. by late 1873... It was well received in the U.S. because it was well made, reliable, concealable, and relatively cheap compared to a Colt or a Smith & Wesson, plus it was “self-cocking, ...In January of 1877 Colt’s offered their .38 S.A. for $15. For that money you could buy three Webley Bulldog revolvers.
And down below, the same article/author that hailed the Webley quality & reliability ...
The quality of manufacture of the Colt was far beyond that of the Webley, and indeed was better than that of most other guns made anywhere in the world at the time.
My question: how can you trust what you read ? .
On the other hand, judging by what we read out there, it appears that all gun men had pistols of all sorts .
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Old 11th July 2019, 03:29 AM   #7
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Excellent entry Norman, thank you!!!

OK Fernando, that makes sense, and you're right, the 'rig' wouldn't be on his left hip unless the butt was forward for cross draw if he was right handed..which he was.

There seem to be varying accounts of what guns Billy used, but that tintype photo, being the only generally accepted image of him with the rifle and Colt Army revolver seem to have secured those as 'his'.
What became of them after his surrender is unclear, and he of course took several guns from the Lincoln County courthouse in his escape. Could his Colt M1873 Army revolver and 1873 Winchester have been retrieved by him? Did he keep the shotgun he used to kill deputy Bob Olinger and the revolver of deputy James Bell which he shot him with?

So, were the guns in the tintype of Billy actually HIS weapons? or were they provided by the itinerant photographer who made the tintype in 1880. Billy's girl insisted that he never dressed that way around town, only when he was 'out on the range'. He was more neatly dressed around town.
Again, all we have are assumptions it seems.

Again, the Colt 'thunderer' notion is understandable, it seems these were known to be used by a number of gunfighters, but in many cases as 'hide out' guns. I think the 'tale' of it being Billy's favorite is most likely pulp fiction lore and marketers hype as suggested.

As noted, persons who were known 'pistoleers' naturally had numerous guns, and writers tried to sensationalize particular types as their favorites to satisfy the public fascination with these figures. Hickok is best known for his pair of M1851 Navy revolvers, but had an array of others including the BULLDOG

Wyatt Earp has always been known for the legendary 'Buntline Special' Colt .45 with foot long barrel....but in reality carried a Smith & Wesson ( in his coat pocket!) at the OK Corral.
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Old 11th July 2019, 11:28 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
... So, were the guns in the tintype of Billy actually HIS weapons? or were they provided by the itinerant photographer who made the tintype in 1880...

Not impossible ... as often such 'props' were used to 'compose' the picture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
... Billy's girl insisted that he never dressed that way around town, only when he was 'out on the range'. He was more neatly dressed around town.
Again, all we have are assumptions it seems...

This drives us to also assume that, the 'other' picture where he is said to figure (in the left), one taken in the summer of 1878, makes sense ... and in this one he appears in a right handed pose .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
...As noted, persons who were known 'pistoleers' naturally had numerous guns,..

I like the term 'pistoleer'; same as in my lingo (pistoleiro).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
...Wyatt Earp has always been known for the legendary 'Buntline Special' Colt .45 with foot long barrel....but in reality carried a Smith & Wesson ( in his coat pocket!) at the OK Corral...

For the reasons already exposed, while is a risk to 'swear' what he was carrying, i have a strong guess that certainly not such 'wall gun' like a 'Buntline' ... more adequate to keep in his house armoire.

.
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Old 11th July 2019, 04:38 PM   #9
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Good stuff, while the 'jury is still out' on the 'croquet' photo, it remains compelling despite the rebuttal of many recognized experts.
While the individual presumed to be Billy is certainly of the age etc. forensic comparison is always strained in these kinds of matters, and the complete absence of provenance renders it suspicious at best.

It seems references I have seen on this particular image often note the other figures in it by name, and among the number are names like Chisum, Maxwell and Scurlock. All of these are persons known to be 'Regulators' or known friends of Billy's. These would be corroborating if comparing their images with other known contemporary images of them. I am not sure if this has been done, but I must imagine that it has.

Returning to the well known tintype of Billy, as noted, it is quite possible that the photographer may have provided these guns as props, however Billy may have as easily fetched his own guns for the image. With these type images by professional photographers we know that tintypes and the later forms of CDV (carte de visite) the posed person seems to almost invariably hold the same weapon forms in the same position. This is evident in Civil War images where the soldiers typically hold a Colt M1851 Navy and a Bowie knife in a notably 'serious' manner.
'Gunfighters' of course, would typically want their image to match their purported reputations, which only added to the hyperbole.

With that, the term gunfighter is not known to have been used before c. 1894 officially (in dictionaries) but was certainly known much earlier. The term 'shootist' was typically designating notable marksmen (or women as with Anne Oakley) but may have been used for gunfighters occasionally. We know of course the term was so used in the John Wayne classic "the Shootist".
The term pistoleer, as noted, was from the Spanish/Mexican 'pistolero' and with the profound presence of Mexican gunfighters throughout the 'west' of course filtered into the slang of the times. A pocket type pistol was a 'pistola'.
Wild Bill Hickok was often called a pistoleer, but perhaps loosely referred to his use of the Bulldog pistol. In later years, with failing eyesight he deferred his 'gunfighting' ways and took to gambling. When he was assassinated in Deadwood by Jack McCall in Saloon #10, he had a pocket carried Smith & Wesson #2 revolver, but shot from behind, never had the chance to use it .

With 'guns', a pocket pistol (like the Thunderer) was 'carried' , and when used was not 'drawn' but PULLED.
The revolver holstered was 'drawn'...…..and was broadly termed a 'gun'.

The 'Buntline' was actually intended as a kind of revolver rifle hybrid, and these usually had added rifle stock as an accessory. It was not intended as a holstered gun for wear for defense, and obviously its barrel would severely impair such use.
Indeed Wyatt retained his as made as a novelty, while the other four notable recipients (the five guns were presented by pulp writer Ned Buntline) had their barrels cut down to standard length.
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Old 13th July 2019, 01:09 PM   #10
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Default Naming things ...

While we here use the generic term 'pistoleiro' for a gun man, we make a clear distinction when naming a 'revolver' or a 'pistola', as so technically different they are.

On the Buntline; once it has its barrel shortened, is no more a Buntline ... but a Buntshorty .

They say that what Ned Buntline did, was no more that ordering five 1873 Colt Single Action Army revolvers, outfitted them with 12 inch barrels and clamp on wood butt stocks,
The classic Colt Army/Navy .44 caliber also has lugs for attaching a shoulder stock.
So what he actually did as new was ... stretch the barrel .

.
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Old 14th July 2019, 09:07 PM   #11
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AH, but there was another little known 'Buntline'...…..
The DERRINGER Buntline!!!!
Something that came to me in the mists of Western myth and lore. Hmmmm!
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Old 14th July 2019, 09:33 PM   #12
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So here's the thing about Billy's M1873 Winchester so moved about in the immortal tintype of 1880. It seems (according to Paulita Maxwell, generally thought to be his girlfriend) he had this tintype made in 1880 (probably summer) at she claimed that it was done in front of Smith's saloon in town. Here Billy and his pals spent a lot of time, and Billy actually dealt cards there, and remarkably Pat Garrett was at the time bartender.

Pal Charlie Bowdrie had a CDV photo done with his wife Manuela in Las Vegas, N.M. earlier and he had his weapons, including his rifle across his lap (seated).
Billy wanted to have one done, and an itinerant photographer set up his wagon near the saloon. Accounts say it was quite easy to perform these tintypes, as equipment was inexpensive and one did not need to be professional. It seems certain the guns Billy had were his, and he brought them for the image.

It seems men in this rugged territory typically went about armed (obviously in these 'war' conditions) however Paulita said Billy was very neat about his clothes in town...and NEVER would have worn these type things except on the range. The crumpled slouch hat was also not his usual 'sugarloaf sombero' which he got from Chihuahua.
Apparently the photographer had him position the Winchester in holding position to steady him for the image, he pushed back the sweater on his RIGHT side to reveal the Colt revolver.
These tintypes (there were 4 ) cost two bits, and one ended up with newspaper which of course boosted his notoriety as a deadly outlaw.

NOW THE QUESTION:

If Billy was captured at Stinking Springs in December of 1880, and there is no mention of his Winchester......and he was held captive until his escape in April. Where was the Winchester?
Obviously he could not have had it in jail......he does not seem to have had it at Stinking Springs, and no mention is made of it at the time of his death in July (July 14, 1881 , exactly 138 hears ago) .

I saw a Winchester M1873 in the 'Billy the Kid ' museum in Ft. Sumner, N.M. several days ago, and it says it was given away by Billy 2 months before his death.
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Old 6th August 2019, 09:37 AM   #13
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In Joseph G. Rosas: "The taming of the west. Age if the gunfighter" you can read:
“Billy the Kid carried a variety of Winchester rifles and Colt revolvers during the course of his career. However it is also claimed that in about 1880 he swapped his Peacemaker for a Colt .41 caliber double-action “Thunderer”.
In the book you can also see a Whitney-Kennedy lever action carbine and the text goes:
“The Whitney-Kennedy lever-action carbine is purported to have been presented by the Kid to deputy U.S marshal Eugene Van Patten for treating him fairly when in his charge. Van Patten treasured the gift, recalling the part he played in the Kid´s life”.

/Stefan
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Old 6th August 2019, 10:41 AM   #14
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Most interesting, Hombre .
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Old 6th August 2019, 01:40 PM   #15
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Hombre, thank you so much for this reference!!! I have another book by Rosa which did not include that material, so this is outstanding. Its amazing that one of the foremost experts on western gunfighters was this brilliant researcher and writer from England.
Apparently he also wrote one of the most authentic biographies of Wild Bill Hickok as well as many other articles on the west.

It seems like 'the Kid' was quite the diplomat in his exchanges with some officials, and was an eloquent letter writer as well.

The lore of the west is so fascinating, thank you again for the great heads up
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Old 7th August 2019, 09:43 AM   #16
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Thank you, guys!
I really like to read Joseph G Rosa`s books..... The books he wrote about
James Butler Hickok are outstanding and some others too....
I have been collecting books about the Old American West since I was a kid and when I started to collect old Winchesters, Marlin lever guns and Colt SAA revolver then the reference books are a must....
I only wish that I had the same library when it comes to blades...

Best,
Stefan
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Old 7th August 2019, 08:29 PM   #17
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Default The M1873 Winchester saddle ring carbine

Im totally with you Hombre!!!! (PS I loved that movie with Paul Newman, "Hombre"). As I grew up mostly in the Southwest including Utah and Colorado, I have always had a deep interest in the history. While I have studied historic edged weapons for over 50 years, as we travel through these areas in the 'bookmobile' (on the road in RV for over 12 yrs) it is impossible not to be totally caught up in it.

In Albuquerque, N.M. I had the good fortune to finally find a good Winchester SRC (=saddle ring carbine). This was a worn, well used piece that has lived its rugged life here in New Mexico.
It is the 1873 (3rd model) just as Billy's, and is in .44-.40, exactly as preferred on the range as the ammo as the same as in the Colt 'peacemakers'. While far from any expert on this, I suspect this is one of the earlier ones as it still has the dovetail sight, the ladder sight was added more around 1880.

It has been 'worked' and the magazine has been shortened, the butt has been replaced (there is damage to the butt), its patina black, and the rawhide added for grip?

I wanted to add it here as we have been talking on Billy's guns, and seemed appropriate to add a genuine working gun of New Mexico of the time. In this condition scorned by collectors, I am a historian, and this carbine is steeped in history!

As you are a collector of these guns Hombre, I look forward to your insights.
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Old 8th August 2019, 10:35 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
..., I suspect this is one of the earlier ones as it still has the dovetail sight, the ladder sight was added more around 1880...



,
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Old 8th August 2019, 07:19 PM   #19
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Fernando, thank you for these serial numbers!
I suspect if any are still visible they are under the rawhide, but don't wish to dismantle. This thing is incredibly worn.
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Old 13th August 2019, 10:10 AM   #20
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Sorry for not being here for a while... I have been feeling so/so....
Anyway, I like your carbine, Jim!
Do you mind if I use your picture of it... I want to discuss it with a friend.... Of course, I will tell you what our conclusions will be for whatever it is worth... By the way, here is one of my carbines, mfg 1888 and and was shipped a couple of days later march 31st , a little bit late but it has history so....

Best,
Stefan
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Old 13th August 2019, 04:10 PM   #21
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Hey Hombre!!! I'm glad you're back! I was afraid the discussion here had run its course, but my fascination with the west surges ahead. We are out of Albuquerque now in Arizona with an appropriately named park , "Dead Horse Ranch" just north of Prescott. We have been here many times and we enjoy going to an old mining town we can see from here on the side of a mountain (actually these are rugged foot hills).
Going through wester history of the late 19th c. you will see many of the key figures mentioned being in Prescott at one time or another.

Of course you are welcome to use pics of my carbine, and I am pleased to share it as I have here. The dealer I got it from is well known and quite up front in his dealings and pointed out the numerous elements which this one had. As may be expected in a gun with a very long working life, numerous alterations have been made such as the cut down magazine. The dark patination is congruent overall so many of these have been done many years ago.

The butt as I understand has a rifle plate rather than the one originally on it, possibly having to do with damage to the stock. The action is well working.
I am suspecting that while this is a 3rd model, the dovetail sight suggests earlier, before the addition of the ladder sight.

Being chambered in .44-.40 is a plus also, as this 'universal' caliber was preferred on the range so interchangeable with the Colt .44-.40, again as I understand. This is quite a learning curve for me, so exciting and fascinating, and I appreciate your notes and recommendations.
The book you recommended is outstanding !!

Last night watched the movie "You know my Name' with Sam Elliott as Bill Tilghman. It was brilliant, and truly showed just how the 'wild west' transcended into the 20th century, here taking place in Oklahoma in the 1920s. It seemed strange with model T's and horses in the same context, but its true to form.

In Texas where we are most of the time, it is still very much the west as it was in the towns (the cities of course are mainstream). I have often mentioned the Texas Rangers (see the movie "Hell or High Water" Jeff Bridges. They are still on patrol (about 171 in the state) and while with modern equipment (radios, computers etc.) they still are on horseback in much of the area with cattle herding and activity on the ranges.

With the slow and subtle transition from the wild west into the next century (and still of course), it is easy to see this carbine, just as many others, saw such a long working life, in its case in New Mexico, just one state away.

Thank you for showing your carbine here, BEAUTIFUL example!!! These are fantastic rifles overall throughout the spectrum, and truly deserving of their name (along with the Peacemaker), 'the guns that won the west'.
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