Billy the Kid and the Colt Thunderer pistol

Hombre · 13th August 2019, 11:10 AM

Sorry for not being here for a while... I have been feeling so/so....
Anyway, I like your carbine, Jim!
Do you mind if I use your picture of it... I want to discuss it with a friend.... Of course, I will tell you what our conclusions will be for whatever it is worth... By the way, here is one of my carbines, mfg 1888 and and was shipped a couple of days later march 31st , a little bit late but it has history so....

Best,
Stefan

Jim McDougall · 13th August 2019, 05:10 PM

Hey Hombre!!! I'm glad you're back! I was afraid the discussion here had run its course, but my fascination with the west surges ahead. We are out of Albuquerque now in Arizona with an appropriately named park , "Dead Horse Ranch" just north of Prescott. We have been here many times and we enjoy going to an old mining town we can see from here on the side of a mountain (actually these are rugged foot hills).
Going through wester history of the late 19th c. you will see many of the key figures mentioned being in Prescott at one time or another.

Of course you are welcome to use pics of my carbine, and I am pleased to share it as I have here. The dealer I got it from is well known and quite up front in his dealings and pointed out the numerous elements which this one had. As may be expected in a gun with a very long working life, numerous alterations have been made such as the cut down magazine. The dark patination is congruent overall so many of these have been done many years ago.

The butt as I understand has a rifle plate rather than the one originally on it, possibly having to do with damage to the stock. The action is well working.
I am suspecting that while this is a 3rd model, the dovetail sight suggests earlier, before the addition of the ladder sight.

Being chambered in .44-.40 is a plus also, as this 'universal' caliber was preferred on the range so interchangeable with the Colt .44-.40, again as I understand. This is quite a learning curve for me, so exciting and fascinating, and I appreciate your notes and recommendations.
The book you recommended is outstanding !!

Last night watched the movie "You know my Name' with Sam Elliott as Bill Tilghman. It was brilliant, and truly showed just how the 'wild west' transcended into the 20th century, here taking place in Oklahoma in the 1920s. It seemed strange with model T's and horses in the same context, but its true to form.

In Texas where we are most of the time, it is still very much the west as it was in the towns (the cities of course are mainstream). I have often mentioned the Texas Rangers (see the movie "Hell or High Water" Jeff Bridges. They are still on patrol (about 171 in the state) and while with modern equipment (radios, computers etc.) they still are on horseback in much of the area with cattle herding and activity on the ranges.

With the slow and subtle transition from the wild west into the next century (and still of course), it is easy to see this carbine, just as many others, saw such a long working life, in its case in New Mexico, just one state away.

Thank you for showing your carbine here, BEAUTIFUL example!!! These are fantastic rifles overall throughout the spectrum, and truly deserving of their name (along with the Peacemaker), 'the guns that won the west'.

yxrancher · 17th July 2021, 10:09 PM

Jim,
I’m sure you would be interested to know that the gun Pat Garrett used to kill Billy is coming up for auction. This gun was purchased directly from the Garrett family.
Jv

CSinTX · 18th July 2021, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yxrancher

Jim,
I’m sure you would be interested to know that the gun Pat Garrett used to kill Billy is coming up for auction. This gun was purchased directly from the Garrett family.
Jv

I see you're a new member. With the name, I assume also from Texas? There's some additional discussion here- https://texags.com/forums/34/topics/3209290

Rick · 18th July 2021, 05:16 PM

Evidently my Grandfather was interested in Billy also. Found this in the library after he passed on.

David · 18th July 2021, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Evidently my Grandfather was interested in Billy also. Found this in the library after he passed on.

Interesting that the illustration in this book shows Billy as a lefty.

fernando · 18th July 2021, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Interesting that the illustration in this book shows Billy as a lefty.

.

Jim McDougall · 18th July 2021, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Evidently my Grandfather was interested in Billy also. Found this in the library after he passed on.

What an amazing book Rick!!! and all the more a treasure as it belonged to your grandfather!
While these books were of course not the most reliable historically as they were still within almost the same generation as the subjects and 'lore' was very much at hand, they are fascinating reading from 'real time' in that way.

As David points out, this illustration carries the notion that Billy was left handed as the only photo of him was reversed in the photographic situations of the time showing his revolver on the left.

Thanks very much guys!

13th August 2019, 11:10 AM	#1
Hombre Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 232	Sorry for not being here for a while... I have been feeling so/so.... Anyway, I like your carbine, Jim! Do you mind if I use your picture of it... I want to discuss it with a friend.... Of course, I will tell you what our conclusions will be for whatever it is worth... By the way, here is one of my carbines, mfg 1888 and and was shipped a couple of days later march 31st , a little bit late but it has history so.... Best, Stefan Attached Images

17th July 2021, 10:09 PM	#3
yxrancher Member Join Date: Nov 2020 Posts: 1	Pat Garrett Jim, I’m sure you would be interested to know that the gun Pat Garrett used to kill Billy is coming up for auction. This gun was purchased directly from the Garrett family. Jv

18th July 2021, 05:16 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Evidently my Grandfather was interested in Billy also. Found this in the library after he passed on. Attached Images

13th August 2019, 05:10 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	Hey Hombre!!! I'm glad you're back! I was afraid the discussion here had run its course, but my fascination with the west surges ahead. We are out of Albuquerque now in Arizona with an appropriately named park , "Dead Horse Ranch" just north of Prescott. We have been here many times and we enjoy going to an old mining town we can see from here on the side of a mountain (actually these are rugged foot hills). Going through wester history of the late 19th c. you will see many of the key figures mentioned being in Prescott at one time or another. Of course you are welcome to use pics of my carbine, and I am pleased to share it as I have here. The dealer I got it from is well known and quite up front in his dealings and pointed out the numerous elements which this one had. As may be expected in a gun with a very long working life, numerous alterations have been made such as the cut down magazine. The dark patination is congruent overall so many of these have been done many years ago. The butt as I understand has a rifle plate rather than the one originally on it, possibly having to do with damage to the stock. The action is well working. I am suspecting that while this is a 3rd model, the dovetail sight suggests earlier, before the addition of the ladder sight. Being chambered in .44-.40 is a plus also, as this 'universal' caliber was preferred on the range so interchangeable with the Colt .44-.40, again as I understand. This is quite a learning curve for me, so exciting and fascinating, and I appreciate your notes and recommendations. The book you recommended is outstanding !! Last night watched the movie "You know my Name' with Sam Elliott as Bill Tilghman. It was brilliant, and truly showed just how the 'wild west' transcended into the 20th century, here taking place in Oklahoma in the 1920s. It seemed strange with model T's and horses in the same context, but its true to form. In Texas where we are most of the time, it is still very much the west as it was in the towns (the cities of course are mainstream). I have often mentioned the Texas Rangers (see the movie "Hell or High Water" Jeff Bridges. They are still on patrol (about 171 in the state) and while with modern equipment (radios, computers etc.) they still are on horseback in much of the area with cattle herding and activity on the ranges. With the slow and subtle transition from the wild west into the next century (and still of course), it is easy to see this carbine, just as many others, saw such a long working life, in its case in New Mexico, just one state away. Thank you for showing your carbine here, BEAUTIFUL example!!! These are fantastic rifles overall throughout the spectrum, and truly deserving of their name (along with the Peacemaker), 'the guns that won the west'.