Balkan Kilij

Kubur · 12th August 2019, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Here is Balkan Kilij 19 century.
Blade decorations are remarkably similar to Sarajevo work ( see fragment of an unrelated dagger with Sarajevo written on it).
pretty crude silver koftgari,

Olala Ariel not you!
If i remember you have a very similar scabbard for another sword...
IMHO your kilij-pala is Syrian.
There is nothing from the Balkans.
The link with Sarajevo is a silver koftgari, but in Sarajevo the work is better.

ariel · 12th August 2019, 01:12 PM

Allow me to disagree.
First, I have never seen a Syrian sword with abundant use of brass on the handle and scabbard and “stones”. Balkan and Hungarian,- yes.
Second, Syrian koftgari decoration is different: almost always it shows a bunch of rays coming out of the central dot.
I fail to find a difference in the quality of koftgarl between my sword and the Sarajevo dagger, and the motives are identical. Even if there were some differences, they fall into the same group and the quality will necessarily differ between workshops.

TVV · 12th August 2019, 06:55 PM

Ariel, do you think this could be a kilidj made for parade purposes, similar to the ones with over the top coral decoration? Assuming it was meant for a right handed person, and thus worn on the left, you have shown the reverse side which is next to the body and thus not meant to be seen - is the other side identically decorated? Or was this made for a left handed person?

As to the origin, it could honestly be from anywhere within the Ottoman Empire - just like Kubur I do not see any characteristic Balkan features.

Teodor

ariel · 13th August 2019, 03:03 AM

Both sides identical.

Much more luxurious examples are often identified as “ Hungarian magnate”. This one is too simple for that, so I downgraded it to neighboring Balkans.
I got a pm from a knowledgeable person suggesting that virtually all is Persian.

Overall, it’s like adopting a mutt: looks like a smaller version of a German Shepherd, but not quite.

This sword was made to represent an Ottoman Pala, but whether its grandma was a chihuahua and great grandpa a mix of a spaniel and bullmastiff will forever remain a mystery.

Saracen · 14th August 2019, 10:27 AM

Ariel, it seems that the hilt is restored much later.
And then the official is not so shallow

The design of the scabbard seems to me Greek.

Ариэль, похоже что рукоять восстановлена значительно позже.
И тогда чиновкник не так уж и мелок

Оформление ножен мне кажется греческим.

12th August 2019, 01:12 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Allow me to disagree. First, I have never seen a Syrian sword with abundant use of brass on the handle and scabbard and “stones”. Balkan and Hungarian,- yes. Second, Syrian koftgari decoration is different: almost always it shows a bunch of rays coming out of the central dot. I fail to find a difference in the quality of koftgarl between my sword and the Sarajevo dagger, and the motives are identical. Even if there were some differences, they fall into the same group and the quality will necessarily differ between workshops.

12th August 2019, 06:55 PM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Ariel, do you think this could be a kilidj made for parade purposes, similar to the ones with over the top coral decoration? Assuming it was meant for a right handed person, and thus worn on the left, you have shown the reverse side which is next to the body and thus not meant to be seen - is the other side identically decorated? Or was this made for a left handed person? As to the origin, it could honestly be from anywhere within the Ottoman Empire - just like Kubur I do not see any characteristic Balkan features. Teodor

13th August 2019, 03:03 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Both sides identical. Much more luxurious examples are often identified as “ Hungarian magnate”. This one is too simple for that, so I downgraded it to neighboring Balkans. I got a pm from a knowledgeable person suggesting that virtually all is Persian. Overall, it’s like adopting a mutt: looks like a smaller version of a German Shepherd, but not quite. This sword was made to represent an Ottoman Pala, but whether its grandma was a chihuahua and great grandpa a mix of a spaniel and bullmastiff will forever remain a mystery.

14th August 2019, 10:27 AM	#5
Saracen Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 147	Ariel, it seems that the hilt is restored much later. And then the official is not so shallow The design of the scabbard seems to me Greek. Ариэль, похоже что рукоять восстановлена значительно позже. И тогда чиновкник не так уж и мелок Оформление ножен мне кажется греческим.