Belgian pepper box with cutlass bayonet, arabic????

phil.reid · 9th August 2019, 02:01 AM

Goodness , artillery 1832 sword blade on that example .
ill check on the '4' stamps when i get home tonight and post
cheers
Phil

fernando · 9th August 2019, 12:09 PM

They say that, the worst blind is the one who doesn't want to see.
If we look at Phil's gun, the ignition system is the one perpetuated by Allen Thurber, known as 'bar hammer'.
With this acknowledged, you browse the net for Liege pepper boxes with this system and, what we find is that, the Liegeois were not (at all) fond of such percussion system for their 'poivrieres', and what pops up is a massive number of bar hammer pepper boxes made by ... British; and still a recurrent number of versions consistent with the possibility to support a blade ... even one inspired by the same muse.

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Jim McDougall · 9th August 2019, 05:22 PM

While unsure if I am among the blind, I am unclear of what is being illustrated here, and admit I am entirely trying to learn in these discussions so trying to see.
It seems that 'pepperbox' revolvers had been produced in England in the 1830s evolved from of course many years of multi barrel innovations. For some reason, in my limited experience, the British examples I have seen were not marked by the makers.
I am wondering if this may have had anything to do with the propensity of the exposed percussion cap nipples causing multiple discharge and gun failure if not injury or worse to user.

Actually the American versions were indeed often called 'Allen' pepperboxes as the patent holder was Ethan Allen (1837) however his partner Charles Thurber was included in the name Allen & Thurber on the revolvers.

I am quite unclear on the 'bar hammer' term which is suggested different from other pepperbox revolvers? I had thought this notable bar type hammer was present on these overall. That is the case with the British and American examples I have seen personally and in research. Clearly the type of gun has been produced in Russia, Sweden and other countries.
I was not aware that Belgium (Liege) did not care for the ignition system on these (though with the misfire and multiple ignition cases understandable), but it seems they produced 'knock off's of virtually most guns regardless.

The Allen & Thurber pepperbox (illustrated) is the same revolver used by Joseph Smith in Carthage, Illinois in 1844 as he was attacked and assassinated. Apparently he fired with three chambers igniting and three misfires. The gun itself is in the Mormon tabernacle in Salt Lake City, Utah.

I am curious if the 'bar hammer' used on Allen& Thurber and various British pepperboxes is somehow different than on some other pepperboxes.

fernando · 9th August 2019, 06:43 PM

Jim, i was referring to my self inflicted frustration for not noticing what looked obvious (to me) in the first place; not expecting such zealous assumption to be hijacked

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As i started by mentioning the Allen & Thurber in my previous post, of which i didn't include a picture because their typical stocks are not the type of Phil's or British examples. For the matter, it is only the firing system that counts.
For perusal, here is a number, among many, of Liege pepper boxes from my little book "Pistolets et Revolvers de poche au XIXème siècle".

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Jim McDougall · 10th August 2019, 12:48 AM

Thanks Fernando, I would have never have thought that's what you meant. With these pictures I now realize I have never seen a Belgian example, and I had thought that they basically copied the forms and patterns of other countries. I do appreciate the explanation and illustration, and helps to learn the differences here.

9th August 2019, 12:09 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A bit of a detour They say that, the worst blind is the one who doesn't want to see. If we look at Phil's gun, the ignition system is the one perpetuated by Allen Thurber, known as 'bar hammer'. With this acknowledged, you browse the net for Liege pepper boxes with this system and, what we find is that, the Liegeois were not (at all) fond of such percussion system for their 'poivrieres', and what pops up is a massive number of bar hammer pepper boxes made by ... British; and still a recurrent number of versions consistent with the possibility to support a blade ... even one inspired by the same muse. . Attached Images

9th August 2019, 05:22 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	While unsure if I am among the blind, I am unclear of what is being illustrated here, and admit I am entirely trying to learn in these discussions so trying to see. It seems that 'pepperbox' revolvers had been produced in England in the 1830s evolved from of course many years of multi barrel innovations. For some reason, in my limited experience, the British examples I have seen were not marked by the makers. I am wondering if this may have had anything to do with the propensity of the exposed percussion cap nipples causing multiple discharge and gun failure if not injury or worse to user. Actually the American versions were indeed often called 'Allen' pepperboxes as the patent holder was Ethan Allen (1837) however his partner Charles Thurber was included in the name Allen & Thurber on the revolvers. I am quite unclear on the 'bar hammer' term which is suggested different from other pepperbox revolvers? I had thought this notable bar type hammer was present on these overall. That is the case with the British and American examples I have seen personally and in research. Clearly the type of gun has been produced in Russia, Sweden and other countries. I was not aware that Belgium (Liege) did not care for the ignition system on these (though with the misfire and multiple ignition cases understandable), but it seems they produced 'knock off's of virtually most guns regardless. The Allen & Thurber pepperbox (illustrated) is the same revolver used by Joseph Smith in Carthage, Illinois in 1844 as he was attacked and assassinated. Apparently he fired with three chambers igniting and three misfires. The gun itself is in the Mormon tabernacle in Salt Lake City, Utah. I am curious if the 'bar hammer' used on Allen& Thurber and various British pepperboxes is somehow different than on some other pepperboxes. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 9th August 2019 at 05:45 PM.

9th August 2019, 06:43 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Jim, i was referring to my self inflicted frustration for not noticing what looked obvious (to me) in the first place; not expecting such zealous assumption to be hijacked . As i started by mentioning the Allen & Thurber in my previous post, of which i didn't include a picture because their typical stocks are not the type of Phil's or British examples. For the matter, it is only the firing system that counts. For perusal, here is a number, among many, of Liege pepper boxes from my little book "Pistolets et Revolvers de poche au XIXème siècle". . Attached Images

9th August 2019, 02:01 AM	#1
phil.reid Member Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 61	Goodness , artillery 1832 sword blade on that example . ill check on the '4' stamps when i get home tonight and post cheers Phil

10th August 2019, 12:48 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	Thanks Fernando, I would have never have thought that's what you meant. With these pictures I now realize I have never seen a Belgian example, and I had thought that they basically copied the forms and patterns of other countries. I do appreciate the explanation and illustration, and helps to learn the differences here.