Belgian pepper box with cutlass bayonet, arabic????

Richard G · 7th August 2019, 05:41 PM

The old East India Company mark was a "4" surmounting a heart. This could explain in being adopted by local manufactures as a mark of "quality" in some instances.
Regards
Richard

Jim McDougall · 7th August 2019, 06:23 PM

Richard, exactly what I was just researching, and had thought perhaps that suggestion might be a bit tenuous, so Im glad I was not alone!!

The East India Company of course had the heart and VEIC letters quartered with a cross atop. This was of course in line with the well known globe and cross used in marking arms and many items with its Christian connotations.
With the EIC the mark with the cross was intended as a balemark to identify and as a kind of protective amulet mark.

With trade to India, it has often been claimed that the cross was altered by adding a line, into a four, to avoid offending or concerning the Muslim trade partners.

These EIC markings were of course well known throughout India, and in the Anglo-Afghan war of 1839 the markings became prevalent from the locks of the Brown Bess muskets captured by Afghans. The use of these EIC hearts which were topped with a '4' became popular with Afghans using the locks from these guns through the century to fashion their own jezails.

Tribal people tend to see such images symbolically rather than of course their original meaning in the context of origin, and may have seen the '4' as a mark of quality or protective imbuement. They likely disregarded the EIC heart as of course an element of British aggression, much in the way Tipu defaced the mark on his cannons adding his own over them.

Purely speculative, but as Richard has observed, a reasonably plausible idea.

Jim McDougall · 7th August 2019, 06:25 PM

Fernando, I just saw your considerations as well, good examples, thank you!

To my suggestion that pepperbox revolvers were known in Afghanistan and thus duplicated is seen in this Afghan made interpretation, with the usual added decoration typically on jezails.
As noted Phil's example does seem to be a Belgian made pepperbox .

fernando · 8th August 2019, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... To my suggestion that pepperbox revolvers were known in Afghanistan and thus duplicated is seen in this Afghan made interpretation, with the usual added decoration typically on jezails...

Notwithstanding those decorations have no European touch, like Phil's example; still i agree this as obviously being a pertinent approach.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...As noted Phil's example does seem to be a Belgian made pepperbox .

Jim, the way i have read you, you were inclined towards both Belgium and Afghan possibilities.
And while i still consider this to be an European (Belgian) born pistol, i will also have to admit that the blade has undeniable Asian traces.
Would be a far too long shot thinking that this pistol had its disassembly screw lever modified to support a cut down talwar blade ... either before departure from origin workshop or afterwards, as per owner's design ?

On the other hand, it would be interesting to know from Phil which particular parts are marked with the "4"; if not for something else, still good for perusal.

.

vilhelmsson · 8th August 2019, 11:27 PM

FWIW, I reviewed my copy of Blades and Barrels, and there is only one pepperbox sword in the book. It was made by Robert Lawton under US Patent number 481, and it does not resemble your sword.

There are several other revolver swords in the book, but not similar to yours.

phil.reid · 9th August 2019, 02:01 AM

Goodness , artillery 1832 sword blade on that example .
ill check on the '4' stamps when i get home tonight and post
cheers
Phil

fernando · 9th August 2019, 12:09 PM

They say that, the worst blind is the one who doesn't want to see.
If we look at Phil's gun, the ignition system is the one perpetuated by Allen Thurber, known as 'bar hammer'.
With this acknowledged, you browse the net for Liege pepper boxes with this system and, what we find is that, the Liegeois were not (at all) fond of such percussion system for their 'poivrieres', and what pops up is a massive number of bar hammer pepper boxes made by ... British; and still a recurrent number of versions consistent with the possibility to support a blade ... even one inspired by the same muse.

.

7th August 2019, 06:23 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,344	Richard, exactly what I was just researching, and had thought perhaps that suggestion might be a bit tenuous, so Im glad I was not alone!! The East India Company of course had the heart and VEIC letters quartered with a cross atop. This was of course in line with the well known globe and cross used in marking arms and many items with its Christian connotations. With the EIC the mark with the cross was intended as a balemark to identify and as a kind of protective amulet mark. With trade to India, it has often been claimed that the cross was altered by adding a line, into a four, to avoid offending or concerning the Muslim trade partners. These EIC markings were of course well known throughout India, and in the Anglo-Afghan war of 1839 the markings became prevalent from the locks of the Brown Bess muskets captured by Afghans. The use of these EIC hearts which were topped with a '4' became popular with Afghans using the locks from these guns through the century to fashion their own jezails. Tribal people tend to see such images symbolically rather than of course their original meaning in the context of origin, and may have seen the '4' as a mark of quality or protective imbuement. They likely disregarded the EIC heart as of course an element of British aggression, much in the way Tipu defaced the mark on his cannons adding his own over them. Purely speculative, but as Richard has observed, a reasonably plausible idea. Attached Images

7th August 2019, 06:25 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,344	Fernando, I just saw your considerations as well, good examples, thank you! To my suggestion that pepperbox revolvers were known in Afghanistan and thus duplicated is seen in this Afghan made interpretation, with the usual added decoration typically on jezails. As noted Phil's example does seem to be a Belgian made pepperbox . Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 7th August 2019 at 07:28 PM.

8th August 2019, 11:27 PM	#5
vilhelmsson Member Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: Bay Area Posts: 57	FWIW, I reviewed my copy of Blades and Barrels, and there is only one pepperbox sword in the book. It was made by Robert Lawton under US Patent number 481, and it does not resemble your sword. There are several other revolver swords in the book, but not similar to yours. Attached Images

9th August 2019, 12:09 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A bit of a detour They say that, the worst blind is the one who doesn't want to see. If we look at Phil's gun, the ignition system is the one perpetuated by Allen Thurber, known as 'bar hammer'. With this acknowledged, you browse the net for Liege pepper boxes with this system and, what we find is that, the Liegeois were not (at all) fond of such percussion system for their 'poivrieres', and what pops up is a massive number of bar hammer pepper boxes made by ... British; and still a recurrent number of versions consistent with the possibility to support a blade ... even one inspired by the same muse. . Attached Images

7th August 2019, 05:41 PM	#1
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 412	The old East India Company mark was a "4" surmounting a heart. This could explain in being adopted by local manufactures as a mark of "quality" in some instances. Regards Richard

9th August 2019, 02:01 AM	#6
phil.reid Member Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 61	Goodness , artillery 1832 sword blade on that example . ill check on the '4' stamps when i get home tonight and post cheers Phil