Belgian pepper box with cutlass bayonet, arabic????

[phil.reid]

Thanks for the Reply (yes , was getting worried i hadn't received even a " well thats different " reply) Very interesting in regards to the blade marking and does look like a cut-down tulwar
Very helpful and meant to say all parts on this piece including blade and bayonet fitting are stamped'4'( hit $ by mistake)
many thanks
phil

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

A great subject ~ I looked up a few blade and gun combinations as below and at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistol_sword

The weapon with the axe is Polish.
The stiletto dagger combination is German
The One with the duck motif is Belgian.

There are some interesting references and one book looked especially inviting I thought..

BLADES AND BARRELS
six centuries of combination weapons
by H. GORDON FROST.

[fernando]

Interesting item indeed, Phil ...
Indeed a piece that falls into the 'usual unusual' items. Meaning that here and there, composites of this kind pop up, regardless of their non massive proliferation. Take French Dumonthier, who used to come in the market with variations on knife pistols, some embellished to a high end grade. Also we can see examples as sophisticated as the barrel and blade being made in one only piece.
Thinking of Jim's suggestion for this possibly been a setup made in Afghanistan, due to their duplication ability, i notice technical details that would never cross my mind would be object of their 'skilled' smiths attention, namely the Liege type engraving on the cylinder, the way screws are inset on the stock and the preoccupation to stamp an assembly number (#4) in all parts.
Also interesting that we can see out there (in a blog) a rusted example similar (equal) to the one posted, said to be found in a remote land, under the skeleton of a pirate. Go figure !

PS
Oh, i didn't see that Jim meanwhile came in with further considerations!


.

[Richard G]

The old East India Company mark was a "4" surmounting a heart. This could explain in being adopted by local manufactures as a mark of "quality" in some instances.
Regards
Richard

[Jim McDougall]

Richard, exactly what I was just researching, and had thought perhaps that suggestion might be a bit tenuous, so Im glad I was not alone!!
The East India Company of course had the heart and VEIC letters quartered with a cross atop. This was of course in line with the well known globe and cross used in marking arms and many items with its Christian connotations.
With the EIC the mark with the cross was intended as a balemark to identify and as a kind of protective amulet mark.

With trade to India, it has often been claimed that the cross was altered by adding a line, into a four, to avoid offending or concerning the Muslim trade partners.

These EIC markings were of course well known throughout India, and in the Anglo-Afghan war of 1839 the markings became prevalent from the locks of the Brown Bess muskets captured by Afghans. The use of these EIC hearts which were topped with a '4' became popular with Afghans using the locks from these guns through the century to fashion their own jezails.

Tribal people tend to see such images symbolically rather than of course their original meaning in the context of origin, and may have seen the '4' as a mark of quality or protective imbuement. They likely disregarded the EIC heart as of course an element of British aggression, much in the way Tipu defaced the mark on his cannons adding his own over them.

Purely speculative, but as Richard has observed, a reasonably plausible idea.

[Jim McDougall]

Fernando, I just saw your considerations as well, good examples, thank you!


To my suggestion that pepperbox revolvers were known in Afghanistan and thus duplicated is seen in this Afghan made interpretation, with the usual added decoration typically on jezails.
As noted Phil's example does seem to be a Belgian made pepperbox .

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... To my suggestion that pepperbox revolvers were known in Afghanistan and thus duplicated is seen in this Afghan made interpretation, with the usual added decoration typically on jezails...

Notwithstanding those decorations have no European touch, like Phil's example; still i agree this as obviously being a pertinent approach.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...As noted Phil's example does seem to be a Belgian made pepperbox .

Jim, the way i have read you, you were inclined towards both Belgium and Afghan possibilities.
And while i still consider this to be an European (Belgian) born pistol, i will also have to admit that the blade has undeniable Asian traces.
Would be a far too long shot thinking that this pistol had its disassembly screw lever modified to support a cut down talwar blade ... either before departure from origin workshop or afterwards, as per owner's design ?

On the other hand, it would be interesting to know from Phil which particular parts are marked with the "4"; if not for something else, still good for perusal.

.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by phil.reid

Thanks for the Reply (yes , was getting worried i hadn't received even a " well thats different " reply) Very interesting in regards to the blade marking and does look like a cut-down tulwar
Very helpful and meant to say all parts on this piece including blade and bayonet fitting are stamped'4'( hit $ by mistake)
many thanks
phil

You are very welcome Phil, and I'm grateful for you posting this fascinating piece! The thing about combination weapons is that they are so esoteric and unusual that few collectors enter into such daunting areas. However, in the 'golden years' of arms collecting one key dealer/collector took on the task of gathering such pieces and wrote the now classic "Firearms Curiosa", by Lewis Winant (1961).

Actually your thoughts on Belgian origin on this were extremely well placed, as the makers in Liege were not only prolific in producing many of the most popularly known arms in most countries, but most innovative as well.
With combination weapons, as mentioned, Elgin contrived his combination gun and cutlass in 1838, but later, in 1869, Louis Dolne of Liege came up with a combination knuckle duster, and 7mm pinfire revolver which was also mounted with a small knife/bayonet.

This odd combination was not particularly lethal, however it was 'impressive' and later popularized in turn of the century Paris by gangs of street toughs known as 'the Apaches'.

The combination of gun and edged weapon was hardly new, as well noted by Ibrahiim in his entry, and for example many 'hunting swords' (hirshfangers) were mounted with pistol actions in earlier centuries. In India, armourers were always coming up with imaginative weapons to impress prospective clients and the patronage of princely figures.

That is what I suspect this intriguing example you have posted may be, and the arms of Liege often became available in India through British forces and diplomatic exchanges along with the volume of other arms.

The '4' numeral is a very curious application, and it seems I have seen it on other arms of the Subcontinent in similar manner. It does not seem to be from a lot or administrative number or production mark, but possibly to do with some symbolic case.