Origin of maker´s stamp on this yatagan

Martin Lubojacky · 6th August 2019, 10:04 AM

Thank you for the correction of the exposure ! (I took photos at home before my current trip and the next possibility of some remedy/new pictures will be in November ...)

Jim McDougall · 6th August 2019, 11:33 PM

Way out of my field Martin, but this interesting example has a very European feel to me, and reminds me of the kinds of weapon often used by auxiliary units such as 'pandours' in the mid 18th c. and later similar 'exotic' units later.

I had somehow had the idea that Turkish or Ottoman makers did not typically sign or mark their work, and that the dynastic themes and couplets of poetry etc. took precedence.

The channeling and style of the blade as well as the deeply stamped cartouche suggest possible European make. I have seen such blades with similar profile etc. which were clearly European made, and engraved with European ligature.
These were almost certainly from European use in the Balkans in such units.

Kubur · 7th August 2019, 11:43 AM

It's probably a yataghan from the Balkans, maybe Greek?

Just kidding

David R · 7th August 2019, 12:29 PM

To me, the panelled blade had a Central Asian "feel". As for the stamp, lots of Ottoman Yataghans have stamps, possibly from the bigger workshops that exported them.
Pandour Yataghans tend to have more European mounts.

kronckew · 7th August 2019, 01:20 PM

Greek Yats tend to have integral bolsters, Turkish ones, not. As noted, lots of turkish yats have that small deep stamp that looks like there are some arabic letters inside.

Martin Lubojacky · 7th August 2019, 02:36 PM

Thanks for comments. The handle is Anatolian for sure. Re. the blade - I am definitely not an expert in yatagans, nevertheless to me it has "something like the Central Asian feel", too. It is interesting, that this style of blades exists (if we consider eastern side only) in Anatolia (yats) - and than there is big distance up to Indian sousson patas. There are not any Iranian and Afghan yatagans (I mean in recent 19th and beg. of 20th centuries, not in ancient times) ? (Sorry for this maybe trivial question).

As far as the possible European origin of the blade: The true is that its (thorough) workmansip recalls factory goods (e.g. quality cold weapons produced by the end of 19th century for armies ...).

David R · 7th August 2019, 03:11 PM

I would look at Afghanistan for this one. They made some odd hybrid weapons in the 19th century, and some outright copies as well. Afghan Kukri for example.
"Khyber knives" are regarded as a Yat' variant in fact.

Kubur · 7th August 2019, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

As noted, lots of turkish yats have that small deep stamp that looks like there are some arabic letters inside.

And the Algerian yataghans, they don't have deep stamps?

Martin is it possible to have good photos of the handle?

I know, I'm annoying, I'm saying that Greek yataghans are Turkish and the Turkish are Algerians...

Martin Lubojacky · 7th August 2019, 04:01 PM

Kubur, I don´t have possibility to do another photos, now. The handle is made of ordinary horn, its mountings of brass (relatively thick plate).
"Ears": They are partially broken. It is not classical T-handle with long spiky edges. It is something between this T-handle and small flat ears (slightly widened at the end, but this is broken)

kronckew · 7th August 2019, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

And the Algerian yataghans, they don't have deep stamps?

Martin is it possible to have good photos of the handle?

I know, I'm annoying, I'm saying that Greek yataghans are Turkish and the Turkish are Algerians...

Algeria was part of the Turkish sphere of influence, someone mentioned the stamp as being a 'European' indicator, Greece was restless under the Turkish thumb, and kept their Eastern orthodox roots. I disagreed that the stamp was European. I have noted the Greek yats and yat shaped shepherd's knives have those integral bolsters and the turkish empire ones usually do not. (libyan khodmi being an exception, and not a yat anyway).

Anyhow, the recurved blade sword is ancient, spearing from Spain thru the Med where Greek colonies abounded, and of course Greece and Macedon itself used the Kopis, and Alexander, (Iskander) spread it east thru Persia into Afghanistan and northern india and it is even found as far as Indonesia. And it went west again with Ptolomy into Egypt and North Africa.

Found a drawing of yat hilt types, sadly cannot find the notes that correspond, i gather the document they are from is in Russian anyway.

7th August 2019, 12:29 PM	#4
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,138	To me, the panelled blade had a Central Asian "feel". As for the stamp, lots of Ottoman Yataghans have stamps, possibly from the bigger workshops that exported them. Pandour Yataghans tend to have more European mounts. Attached Images

6th August 2019, 10:04 AM	#1
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 847	Thank you for the correction of the exposure ! (I took photos at home before my current trip and the next possibility of some remedy/new pictures will be in November ...)

6th August 2019, 11:33 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,730	Way out of my field Martin, but this interesting example has a very European feel to me, and reminds me of the kinds of weapon often used by auxiliary units such as 'pandours' in the mid 18th c. and later similar 'exotic' units later. I had somehow had the idea that Turkish or Ottoman makers did not typically sign or mark their work, and that the dynastic themes and couplets of poetry etc. took precedence. The channeling and style of the blade as well as the deeply stamped cartouche suggest possible European make. I have seen such blades with similar profile etc. which were clearly European made, and engraved with European ligature. These were almost certainly from European use in the Balkans in such units.

7th August 2019, 11:43 AM	#3
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	It's probably a yataghan from the Balkans, maybe Greek? Just kidding

7th August 2019, 01:20 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,263	Greek Yats tend to have integral bolsters, Turkish ones, not. As noted, lots of turkish yats have that small deep stamp that looks like there are some arabic letters inside.

7th August 2019, 02:36 PM	#6
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 847	Thanks for comments. The handle is Anatolian for sure. Re. the blade - I am definitely not an expert in yatagans, nevertheless to me it has "something like the Central Asian feel", too. It is interesting, that this style of blades exists (if we consider eastern side only) in Anatolia (yats) - and than there is big distance up to Indian sousson patas. There are not any Iranian and Afghan yatagans (I mean in recent 19th and beg. of 20th centuries, not in ancient times) ? (Sorry for this maybe trivial question). As far as the possible European origin of the blade: The true is that its (thorough) workmansip recalls factory goods (e.g. quality cold weapons produced by the end of 19th century for armies ...).

7th August 2019, 03:11 PM	#7
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,138	I would look at Afghanistan for this one. They made some odd hybrid weapons in the 19th century, and some outright copies as well. Afghan Kukri for example. "Khyber knives" are regarded as a Yat' variant in fact.

7th August 2019, 04:01 PM	#9
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 847	Kubur, I don´t have possibility to do another photos, now. The handle is made of ordinary horn, its mountings of brass (relatively thick plate). "Ears": They are partially broken. It is not classical T-handle with long spiky edges. It is something between this T-handle and small flat ears (slightly widened at the end, but this is broken)