Buying at arm's length

A. G. Maisey · 5th August 2019, 01:22 PM

Ken, the problem is that you do not have the opportunity to use your knowledge.

If you go back to my opening post you will find that I am talking only about misrepresentation:- silver plate or mamas presented as silver, pastes presented as gemstones.

At no time have I been talking about the silly little errors and misunderstandings in general descriptions.

If you bid on the basis of silver and you get silver plate or mamas you have been flim-flamed. Conned. Lied to. You have paid too much.

That has absolutely nothing at all to do with knowledge, it has a great deal to do with the lack of knowledge, a lack deliberately, or perhaps because of laziness, created by the auctioneer.

But since we have strayed so far from my original intent in starting this thread and we are talking about appraisals on the basis of photographs, I will comment on that.

Very frequently I am approached by people to give opinions and valuations of keris. I get a couple of usually rather poor photographs, and I get asked the value, or description of that keris, often I get asked how old it is. Now, although I have something like 65 or 66 years experience in the study and collection of keris, I usually cannot tell too much at all from those photos, most especially I am not able to give any sort of approximately accurate valuation. If I cannot value nor appraise a keris from a photograph and no usable description, what chance has anybody else got? Unless of course they're psychic.

The auctioneer owns the game, not me, and that is why I do not bid at auction unless I can handle the goods beforehand.

RAMBA · 6th August 2019, 01:21 AM

I have benefited from poor descriptions (just recently picked up a incredibly early rare kukri that is 19th C not mid 20th thanks very much) but also watched on annoyed at what would seem to be a deliberate mistake - "ivory" when it is clearly bone or such like. Reverse that I recently inquired on a lovely UK auction tulwar with small accompanying scabbard knives - described as bone hilt knives and I asked the auction house to confirm this (looked ivory to me) and they came back oh yes ivory - i passed - could have been an interesting discussion with customs.

I have avoided the military weapons world where fake stamps and misrepresentations seem to be more common.

I think one has to know what they are buying. I'm making far better decisions now than even a couple of years ago. But some things are not visible in any image - I recently bought a kukri with scabbard from a UK antiques dealer and the scabbard had clearly been crushed at some point and was lets say flexible. This was not mentioned in any description but to me an important part of the condition not visible in any photo.

Don't really know Keris/Kris well but those small description "errors" could easily lead to someone shelling out more than they should. Seeing the term "silver metal" used.

Oh and many sellers photos are terrible and it is hard to get the full picture. I often have to ask for more and certain images.

I'm in Australia too and incoming international shipping is a real consideration in terms of price and just the hassle when auction houses don't ship or arrange shipping.

A. G. Maisey · 6th August 2019, 02:45 AM

Yes Ramba, it is possible to benefit from incorrect descriptions, just as it possible to lose. In other words, its a gamble.

Knowing what you wish to buy is a given, nobody should ever buy anything at auction unless they know the field, but as you point out, there are many things that cannot be picked up from a photo, especially a bad photo, so we need to rely upon the auctioneer's description, but these descriptions are very often so incorrect as to be ludicrous, moreover, the auction houses go out of their way to tell you that you cannot rely upon a single word they say.

Then we have Australian Customs, and I guess they are no more strict than any other Customs services anywhere in the world. Its their job, and they do it very well indeed. However, a little bit of common sense would perhaps not go astray sometimes.

Not long ago a friend attempted to send a piece of antique jewellery from here in Australia, to her daughter in USA. It was 19th century stuff, and it contained ivory. It was accepted by the post office, but on the way out of Australia it was stopped and opened by Australian Customs. They still have it, and my friend is waiting to find out if she is going to be prosecuted.

So, insofar as ivory is concerned, here in the Land of Oz we don't only have to be concerned about import of ivory, but export of ivory as well.

The lesson is that at least in this country you need to know the law in detail, and never, ever screw around with Australian Customs.

RAMBA · 6th August 2019, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes Ramba, it is possible to benefit from incorrect descriptions, just as it possible to lose. In other words, its a gamble.

Knowing what you wish to buy is a given, nobody should ever buy anything at auction unless they know the field, but as you point out, there are many things that cannot be picked up from a photo, especially a bad photo, so we need to rely upon the auctioneer's description, but these descriptions are very often so incorrect as to be ludicrous, moreover, the auction houses go out of their way to tell you that you cannot rely upon a single word they say.

Then we have Australian Customs, and I guess they are no more strict than any other Customs services anywhere in the world. Its their job, and they do it very well indeed. However, a little bit of common sense would perhaps not go astray sometimes.

Not long ago a friend attempted to send a piece of antique jewellery from here in Australia, to her daughter in USA. It was 19th century stuff, and it contained ivory. It was accepted by the post office, but on the way out of Australia it was stopped and opened by Australian Customs. They still have it, and my friend is waiting to find out if she is going to be prosecuted.

So, insofar as ivory is concerned, here in the Land of Oz we don't only have to be concerned about import of ivory, but export of ivory as well.

The lesson is that at least in this country you need to know the law in detail, and never, ever screw around with Australian Customs.

I have no problems with our "Border Force" or their representatives opening items - but I have had a number of items treated like a bit of scrap metal. And damaged in the process.

I also have a sneaky suspicion that i have bid against an auction houses proxy on these online auction platforms. Seeing an item go for a high price only to reappear a month or two later with the same seller - buyer could have always not paid.

A. G. Maisey · 6th August 2019, 05:29 AM

I used to buy a lot at auctions in the days when Lawsons in Sydney used to charge a seller 10% and a buyer nothing. I started buying at auction when I was around 15 or 16, usually left bids. However, I rarely buy at auction these days because of the buyers premium, plus the fact that it is frequently a matter of bidding against people who do not seem to have any idea of the true value of an item. But I do understand the way auctions work.

There are a number of ways that an item can appear to have bids placed on it that the auctioneer is pulling off the wall. There are left bids that I have used, the auctioneer is entitled to lodge bids to keep a lot moving and maintain the pace of the auction, ordinary general auctioneers aim for between 60 and 90 lots an hour, that means that the bidding moves quickly.

There are telephone bids, there are internet bids. There are people in the bidders present who have pre-arranged a signal with the auctioneer so that others do not know they are bidding, this sort of thing is usually used by someone who is a known expert.

Then there is the reserve price.

The cream on the cake are the auction houses who own the auctioned goods themselves, but pretend that they are auctioning a deceased estate or whatever. Basically, they're all shonks and liars, and they tell you this themselves in the "Terms" section of their catalogues.

Often a lot will finish and you don't really know if it has sold or not, so you need to check at the end of the auction.

RAMBA · 6th August 2019, 08:15 AM

I haven't experienced such a thing

I don't see the value in the auction buyers premium - can't even get half of them to sort the shipping for that fee. Add on the online bidding fee etc. and you can be up to 30% on hammer.

A. G. Maisey · 6th August 2019, 08:55 AM

You mean the 10% for sellers only?

That's history Ramba. I think it probably disappeared in about the 1970's.

6th August 2019, 01:21 AM	#2
RAMBA Member Join Date: Apr 2019 Posts: 102	I have benefited from poor descriptions (just recently picked up a incredibly early rare kukri that is 19th C not mid 20th thanks very much) but also watched on annoyed at what would seem to be a deliberate mistake - "ivory" when it is clearly bone or such like. Reverse that I recently inquired on a lovely UK auction tulwar with small accompanying scabbard knives - described as bone hilt knives and I asked the auction house to confirm this (looked ivory to me) and they came back oh yes ivory - i passed - could have been an interesting discussion with customs. I have avoided the military weapons world where fake stamps and misrepresentations seem to be more common. I think one has to know what they are buying. I'm making far better decisions now than even a couple of years ago. But some things are not visible in any image - I recently bought a kukri with scabbard from a UK antiques dealer and the scabbard had clearly been crushed at some point and was lets say flexible. This was not mentioned in any description but to me an important part of the condition not visible in any photo. Don't really know Keris/Kris well but those small description "errors" could easily lead to someone shelling out more than they should. Seeing the term "silver metal" used. Oh and many sellers photos are terrible and it is hard to get the full picture. I often have to ask for more and certain images. I'm in Australia too and incoming international shipping is a real consideration in terms of price and just the hassle when auction houses don't ship or arrange shipping. Last edited by RAMBA; 6th August 2019 at 02:09 AM.

5th August 2019, 01:22 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,017	Ken, the problem is that you do not have the opportunity to use your knowledge. If you go back to my opening post you will find that I am talking only about misrepresentation:- silver plate or mamas presented as silver, pastes presented as gemstones. At no time have I been talking about the silly little errors and misunderstandings in general descriptions. If you bid on the basis of silver and you get silver plate or mamas you have been flim-flamed. Conned. Lied to. You have paid too much. That has absolutely nothing at all to do with knowledge, it has a great deal to do with the lack of knowledge, a lack deliberately, or perhaps because of laziness, created by the auctioneer. But since we have strayed so far from my original intent in starting this thread and we are talking about appraisals on the basis of photographs, I will comment on that. Very frequently I am approached by people to give opinions and valuations of keris. I get a couple of usually rather poor photographs, and I get asked the value, or description of that keris, often I get asked how old it is. Now, although I have something like 65 or 66 years experience in the study and collection of keris, I usually cannot tell too much at all from those photos, most especially I am not able to give any sort of approximately accurate valuation. If I cannot value nor appraise a keris from a photograph and no usable description, what chance has anybody else got? Unless of course they're psychic. The auctioneer owns the game, not me, and that is why I do not bid at auction unless I can handle the goods beforehand.

6th August 2019, 02:45 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,017	Yes Ramba, it is possible to benefit from incorrect descriptions, just as it possible to lose. In other words, its a gamble. Knowing what you wish to buy is a given, nobody should ever buy anything at auction unless they know the field, but as you point out, there are many things that cannot be picked up from a photo, especially a bad photo, so we need to rely upon the auctioneer's description, but these descriptions are very often so incorrect as to be ludicrous, moreover, the auction houses go out of their way to tell you that you cannot rely upon a single word they say. Then we have Australian Customs, and I guess they are no more strict than any other Customs services anywhere in the world. Its their job, and they do it very well indeed. However, a little bit of common sense would perhaps not go astray sometimes. Not long ago a friend attempted to send a piece of antique jewellery from here in Australia, to her daughter in USA. It was 19th century stuff, and it contained ivory. It was accepted by the post office, but on the way out of Australia it was stopped and opened by Australian Customs. They still have it, and my friend is waiting to find out if she is going to be prosecuted. So, insofar as ivory is concerned, here in the Land of Oz we don't only have to be concerned about import of ivory, but export of ivory as well. The lesson is that at least in this country you need to know the law in detail, and never, ever screw around with Australian Customs.

6th August 2019, 05:29 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,017	I used to buy a lot at auctions in the days when Lawsons in Sydney used to charge a seller 10% and a buyer nothing. I started buying at auction when I was around 15 or 16, usually left bids. However, I rarely buy at auction these days because of the buyers premium, plus the fact that it is frequently a matter of bidding against people who do not seem to have any idea of the true value of an item. But I do understand the way auctions work. There are a number of ways that an item can appear to have bids placed on it that the auctioneer is pulling off the wall. There are left bids that I have used, the auctioneer is entitled to lodge bids to keep a lot moving and maintain the pace of the auction, ordinary general auctioneers aim for between 60 and 90 lots an hour, that means that the bidding moves quickly. There are telephone bids, there are internet bids. There are people in the bidders present who have pre-arranged a signal with the auctioneer so that others do not know they are bidding, this sort of thing is usually used by someone who is a known expert. Then there is the reserve price. The cream on the cake are the auction houses who own the auctioned goods themselves, but pretend that they are auctioning a deceased estate or whatever. Basically, they're all shonks and liars, and they tell you this themselves in the "Terms" section of their catalogues. Often a lot will finish and you don't really know if it has sold or not, so you need to check at the end of the auction.

6th August 2019, 08:15 AM	#6
RAMBA Member Join Date: Apr 2019 Posts: 102	I haven't experienced such a thing I don't see the value in the auction buyers premium - can't even get half of them to sort the shipping for that fee. Add on the online bidding fee etc. and you can be up to 30% on hammer.

6th August 2019, 08:55 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,017	You mean the 10% for sellers only? That's history Ramba. I think it probably disappeared in about the 1970's.