Buying at arm's length

Kmaddock · 4th August 2019, 11:24 PM

Hi
Interesting topic.
My personal mantra for purchasing, off topic but I taught I would include

do not spend more than 300 euro on an item unless I am certain
If more than more than 300 try and view in person
If an item has more than 3 flaws do not purchase it
Stop when I have reached my max price
Never trust auction descriptions or opinions always go with pictures
If something is under 50 and looks interesting take the gamble, sometimes I get lucky sometimes not
Mistakes are annoying but you learn from them
And of course
I regret more what I didn’t purchase than what I purchased badly
Regards to all
Ken

Will M · 5th August 2019, 06:00 AM

I find interesting items and put in low bids without looking until the auction is over. I recently won two items this way and both are worth 6x and more of what I paid in total. If you do not have a bid in you cannot win just like a lotto ticket but much better odds..

A. G. Maisey · 5th August 2019, 06:26 AM

Yes, you're right Will, buying at auction is a form of gambling, and just like any form of gambling you are best not to bid more than you are prepared to lose.

But then I don't gamble. Never have. I was given an excellent piece of advice by my grandfather when I was still a little kid:-

"Never gamble unless you own the game"

This came from a man who owned billiard rooms, poker machines, dice and card games, starting price bookmaking, in fact, every form of illegal gambling there was on offer, and who was a professional "negotiator" into the bargain.

Best advice I ever had.

Kmaddock · 5th August 2019, 01:01 PM

Ok I did use the word gamble in my post.

But is it really gambling when you are putting your knowledge up against others
If you know more than the house and the other bidders it is more perhaps outsmarting the house?

Auctioneer always wins as they get commission either way and have only to host the auction. Venue staff and advertisement costs is all they have in the game.

I have purchased rubbish for 50 euro worth nothing and similarly I have purchased v good items for 20

But I need none of what I purchase so it is all a bit of fun

Regards
Ken

A. G. Maisey · 5th August 2019, 02:22 PM

Ken, the problem is that you do not have the opportunity to use your knowledge.

If you go back to my opening post you will find that I am talking only about misrepresentation:- silver plate or mamas presented as silver, pastes presented as gemstones.

At no time have I been talking about the silly little errors and misunderstandings in general descriptions.

If you bid on the basis of silver and you get silver plate or mamas you have been flim-flamed. Conned. Lied to. You have paid too much.

That has absolutely nothing at all to do with knowledge, it has a great deal to do with the lack of knowledge, a lack deliberately, or perhaps because of laziness, created by the auctioneer.

But since we have strayed so far from my original intent in starting this thread and we are talking about appraisals on the basis of photographs, I will comment on that.

Very frequently I am approached by people to give opinions and valuations of keris. I get a couple of usually rather poor photographs, and I get asked the value, or description of that keris, often I get asked how old it is. Now, although I have something like 65 or 66 years experience in the study and collection of keris, I usually cannot tell too much at all from those photos, most especially I am not able to give any sort of approximately accurate valuation. If I cannot value nor appraise a keris from a photograph and no usable description, what chance has anybody else got? Unless of course they're psychic.

The auctioneer owns the game, not me, and that is why I do not bid at auction unless I can handle the goods beforehand.

RAMBA · 6th August 2019, 02:21 AM

I have benefited from poor descriptions (just recently picked up a incredibly early rare kukri that is 19th C not mid 20th thanks very much) but also watched on annoyed at what would seem to be a deliberate mistake - "ivory" when it is clearly bone or such like. Reverse that I recently inquired on a lovely UK auction tulwar with small accompanying scabbard knives - described as bone hilt knives and I asked the auction house to confirm this (looked ivory to me) and they came back oh yes ivory - i passed - could have been an interesting discussion with customs.

I have avoided the military weapons world where fake stamps and misrepresentations seem to be more common.

I think one has to know what they are buying. I'm making far better decisions now than even a couple of years ago. But some things are not visible in any image - I recently bought a kukri with scabbard from a UK antiques dealer and the scabbard had clearly been crushed at some point and was lets say flexible. This was not mentioned in any description but to me an important part of the condition not visible in any photo.

Don't really know Keris/Kris well but those small description "errors" could easily lead to someone shelling out more than they should. Seeing the term "silver metal" used.

Oh and many sellers photos are terrible and it is hard to get the full picture. I often have to ask for more and certain images.

I'm in Australia too and incoming international shipping is a real consideration in terms of price and just the hassle when auction houses don't ship or arrange shipping.

A. G. Maisey · 6th August 2019, 03:45 AM

Yes Ramba, it is possible to benefit from incorrect descriptions, just as it possible to lose. In other words, its a gamble.

Knowing what you wish to buy is a given, nobody should ever buy anything at auction unless they know the field, but as you point out, there are many things that cannot be picked up from a photo, especially a bad photo, so we need to rely upon the auctioneer's description, but these descriptions are very often so incorrect as to be ludicrous, moreover, the auction houses go out of their way to tell you that you cannot rely upon a single word they say.

Then we have Australian Customs, and I guess they are no more strict than any other Customs services anywhere in the world. Its their job, and they do it very well indeed. However, a little bit of common sense would perhaps not go astray sometimes.

Not long ago a friend attempted to send a piece of antique jewellery from here in Australia, to her daughter in USA. It was 19th century stuff, and it contained ivory. It was accepted by the post office, but on the way out of Australia it was stopped and opened by Australian Customs. They still have it, and my friend is waiting to find out if she is going to be prosecuted.

So, insofar as ivory is concerned, here in the Land of Oz we don't only have to be concerned about import of ivory, but export of ivory as well.

The lesson is that at least in this country you need to know the law in detail, and never, ever screw around with Australian Customs.

6th August 2019, 02:21 AM	#6
RAMBA Member Join Date: Apr 2019 Posts: 102	I have benefited from poor descriptions (just recently picked up a incredibly early rare kukri that is 19th C not mid 20th thanks very much) but also watched on annoyed at what would seem to be a deliberate mistake - "ivory" when it is clearly bone or such like. Reverse that I recently inquired on a lovely UK auction tulwar with small accompanying scabbard knives - described as bone hilt knives and I asked the auction house to confirm this (looked ivory to me) and they came back oh yes ivory - i passed - could have been an interesting discussion with customs. I have avoided the military weapons world where fake stamps and misrepresentations seem to be more common. I think one has to know what they are buying. I'm making far better decisions now than even a couple of years ago. But some things are not visible in any image - I recently bought a kukri with scabbard from a UK antiques dealer and the scabbard had clearly been crushed at some point and was lets say flexible. This was not mentioned in any description but to me an important part of the condition not visible in any photo. Don't really know Keris/Kris well but those small description "errors" could easily lead to someone shelling out more than they should. Seeing the term "silver metal" used. Oh and many sellers photos are terrible and it is hard to get the full picture. I often have to ask for more and certain images. I'm in Australia too and incoming international shipping is a real consideration in terms of price and just the hassle when auction houses don't ship or arrange shipping. Last edited by RAMBA; 6th August 2019 at 03:09 AM.

4th August 2019, 11:24 PM	#1
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 545	Hi Interesting topic. My personal mantra for purchasing, off topic but I taught I would include do not spend more than 300 euro on an item unless I am certain If more than more than 300 try and view in person If an item has more than 3 flaws do not purchase it Stop when I have reached my max price Never trust auction descriptions or opinions always go with pictures If something is under 50 and looks interesting take the gamble, sometimes I get lucky sometimes not Mistakes are annoying but you learn from them And of course I regret more what I didn’t purchase than what I purchased badly Regards to all Ken

5th August 2019, 06:00 AM	#2
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 406	I find interesting items and put in low bids without looking until the auction is over. I recently won two items this way and both are worth 6x and more of what I paid in total. If you do not have a bid in you cannot win just like a lotto ticket but much better odds..

5th August 2019, 06:26 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Yes, you're right Will, buying at auction is a form of gambling, and just like any form of gambling you are best not to bid more than you are prepared to lose. But then I don't gamble. Never have. I was given an excellent piece of advice by my grandfather when I was still a little kid:- "Never gamble unless you own the game" This came from a man who owned billiard rooms, poker machines, dice and card games, starting price bookmaking, in fact, every form of illegal gambling there was on offer, and who was a professional "negotiator" into the bargain. Best advice I ever had.

5th August 2019, 01:01 PM	#4
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 545	Ok I did use the word gamble in my post. But is it really gambling when you are putting your knowledge up against others If you know more than the house and the other bidders it is more perhaps outsmarting the house? Auctioneer always wins as they get commission either way and have only to host the auction. Venue staff and advertisement costs is all they have in the game. I have purchased rubbish for 50 euro worth nothing and similarly I have purchased v good items for 20 But I need none of what I purchase so it is all a bit of fun Regards Ken

5th August 2019, 02:22 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Ken, the problem is that you do not have the opportunity to use your knowledge. If you go back to my opening post you will find that I am talking only about misrepresentation:- silver plate or mamas presented as silver, pastes presented as gemstones. At no time have I been talking about the silly little errors and misunderstandings in general descriptions. If you bid on the basis of silver and you get silver plate or mamas you have been flim-flamed. Conned. Lied to. You have paid too much. That has absolutely nothing at all to do with knowledge, it has a great deal to do with the lack of knowledge, a lack deliberately, or perhaps because of laziness, created by the auctioneer. But since we have strayed so far from my original intent in starting this thread and we are talking about appraisals on the basis of photographs, I will comment on that. Very frequently I am approached by people to give opinions and valuations of keris. I get a couple of usually rather poor photographs, and I get asked the value, or description of that keris, often I get asked how old it is. Now, although I have something like 65 or 66 years experience in the study and collection of keris, I usually cannot tell too much at all from those photos, most especially I am not able to give any sort of approximately accurate valuation. If I cannot value nor appraise a keris from a photograph and no usable description, what chance has anybody else got? Unless of course they're psychic. The auctioneer owns the game, not me, and that is why I do not bid at auction unless I can handle the goods beforehand.

6th August 2019, 03:45 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Yes Ramba, it is possible to benefit from incorrect descriptions, just as it possible to lose. In other words, its a gamble. Knowing what you wish to buy is a given, nobody should ever buy anything at auction unless they know the field, but as you point out, there are many things that cannot be picked up from a photo, especially a bad photo, so we need to rely upon the auctioneer's description, but these descriptions are very often so incorrect as to be ludicrous, moreover, the auction houses go out of their way to tell you that you cannot rely upon a single word they say. Then we have Australian Customs, and I guess they are no more strict than any other Customs services anywhere in the world. Its their job, and they do it very well indeed. However, a little bit of common sense would perhaps not go astray sometimes. Not long ago a friend attempted to send a piece of antique jewellery from here in Australia, to her daughter in USA. It was 19th century stuff, and it contained ivory. It was accepted by the post office, but on the way out of Australia it was stopped and opened by Australian Customs. They still have it, and my friend is waiting to find out if she is going to be prosecuted. So, insofar as ivory is concerned, here in the Land of Oz we don't only have to be concerned about import of ivory, but export of ivory as well. The lesson is that at least in this country you need to know the law in detail, and never, ever screw around with Australian Customs.