THE MARTINI HENRY.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The problem or one of them with the Swinburn Henry was the extractor device which relied on a sliding plate but was very prone to jamming. It did however have a unique half and full cocking device in about the same place as the MH Load indicator lever..but much longer and functioned well. This would be useful in preventing an accidental discharge of the round up the spout while on horseback..thus a good bit of kit on the cavalry carbine.

[yulzari]

May I recommend Neil Aspinshaw's seminal book on the Martini Henry which is about to be published (see www. martinihenry.org) which deals with the many stories and myths about the rifle and explains the actual effectiveness of the weapon and it's ammunition. The result of years of close study from primary sources.

Also one should note that most of the smuggled Martinis and bazaar sold ones around the Persian Gulf were Belgian made using the 577/450 ammunition but not identical to the actual service Martini Henry.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Thanks for the detail about the book about to be released on the Martini Henry. This thread is composed from years of research …

ACTUALLY ABOUT 38 YEARS IN ALL FROM MAINLY MY OWN EXPERIENCE WITH THE WEAPON AND AS A DEALER IN THEM FROM AN ACTIVE ANTIQUES SHOP FOR AT LEAST 10 YEARS . THE POSTS TO INSPECT IN THIS REGARD AND ON THE WEAPON FAVOURED BY TRIBALS IN THIS REGION CAN BE SEEN AT #84...38 AND 5 (ONE IS A BOOK) AND WE ARE ALWAYS READY TO VIEW ANY PUBLICATION AS IT ARRISES. I AM SURE THE NEW BOOK WILL GET A GOOD AIRING ON THESE PAGES.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by yulzari

May I recommend Neil Aspinshaw's seminal book on the Martini Henry which is about to be published (see www. martinihenry.org) which deals with the many stories and myths about the rifle and explains the actual effectiveness of the weapon and it's ammunition. The result of years of close study from primary sources.

Also one should note that most of the smuggled Martinis and bazaar sold ones around the Persian Gulf were Belgian made using the 577/450 ammunition but not identical to the actual service Martini Henry.

I was of the impression that most of the "smuggled" Martinis were in fact copy made in what is now Pakistan, though no doubt some were stolen from the British Army. If Belgian made, then surely they would carry a proof mark, and though they may exist, I have never seen a Belgian proof on a Martini. Most "smuggled " Martinis I have seen carry no marks at all, and appear never to have been marked, as there is no sign that marks have been removed.
Perhaps Ibrahiim, who will have seen many "local" Martinis could advise if he has seen any Belgian proved Martinis.
The fact that they were made in 577/450, was that this caliber was what was in common use at the time. Of course they were superceded by .303 when that caliber came into regular use.
Stu

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

I was of the impression that most of the "smuggled" Martinis were in fact copy made in what is now Pakistan, though no doubt some were stolen from the British Army. If Belgian made, then surely they would carry a proof mark, and though they may exist, I have never seen a Belgian proof on a Martini. Most "smuggled " Martinis I have seen carry no marks at all, and appear never to have been marked, as there is no sign that marks have been removed.
Perhaps Ibrahiim, who will have seen many "local" Martinis could advise if he has seen any Belgian proved Martinis.
The fact that they were made in 577/450, was that this caliber was what was in common use at the time. Of course they were superceded by .303 when that caliber came into regular use.
Stu

Please see #95 which outlines the amazing fact that Muscat marked MH were made in Maastrict and smuggled into the region under bales of pottery... The Famous Maastricht pottery commonly still found in Muscat.

Heres the post below ~ I PLACED A Muscat MARTINI AT #17....

Interestingly I collected a lot of Maastricht Petrus Regout a few years ago...The famous Sphinx marked Dutch Pottery so popular in Oman from about 1880 to 1920 and earmarked in a special report by Omanisilver.com as the source of weapons smuggled to the Northwest frontier tribesmen fighting the British in that period. Thus I conclude ~

See http://omanisilver.com/contents/en-us/d645.html for a surprise disclosure about the famous Pottery known as Petrus Regout from Maastricht Holland which started flooding the Omani market in about 1880 for maybe 25 years... It carries the famous sphinx mark underneath.. of which there are several indicating a different year etc... Anyway these pottery bowls were more than likely used to cover the smuggling of one particular mark of Martini Henry made specially for the Muscat Market ...The Muscat Martini Henry made about 10 kilometres from Maastricht and sold into the Afghanistan market for the rebels fighting the British. These as well as weapons made up the Khyber !! were used in that campaign. Omani Silver.com at reference more or less viewing the delivery of weapons through Muscat as highly likely and we know the pottery went through there and was very popular in Oman at one Maria Theresa a piece. I have several dishes. Please read their excellent article.

http://omanisilver.com/contents/en-us/d645.html

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Please see #95 which outlines the amazing fact that Muscat marked MH were made in Maastrict and smuggled into the region under bales of pottery... The Famous Maastricht pottery commonly still found in Muscat.

Heres the post below ~ I PLACED A Muscat MARTINI AT #17....

Interestingly I collected a lot of Maastricht Petrus Regout a few years ago...The famous Sphinx marked Dutch Pottery so popular in Oman from about 1880 to 1920 and earmarked in a special report by Omanisilver.com as the source of weapons smuggled to the Northwest frontier tribesmen fighting the British in that period. Thus I conclude ~

See http://omanisilver.com/contents/en-us/d645.html for a surprise disclosure about the famous Pottery known as Petrus Regout from Maastricht Holland which started flooding the Omani market in about 1880 for maybe 25 years... It carries the famous sphinx mark underneath.. of which there are several indicating a different year etc... Anyway these pottery bowls were more than likely used to cover the smuggling of one particular mark of Martini Henry made specially for the Muscat Market ...The Muscat Martini Henry made about 10 kilometres from Maastricht and sold into the Afghanistan market for the rebels fighting the British. These as well as weapons made up the Khyber !! were used in that campaign. Omani Silver.com at reference more or less viewing the delivery of weapons through Muscat as highly likely and we know the pottery went through there and was very popular in Oman at one Maria Theresa a piece. I have several dishes. Please read their excellent article.

http://omanisilver.com/contents/en-us/d645.html

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hi Ibrahiim,
Interesting possible connection??? but can you verify that Martinis were in fact made in Holland? I do not doubt that arms were smuggled thru Muscat, but anyone could have stamped "Muscat Martini" on the breech. To me , if Muscat was an avenue for smuggling weapons, it would be rather foolish to stamp such a thing on any weapon as it would have directed the "powers that be" to the source and therefore to the confiscatuion of such weapons. With lack of any other evidence showing on the particular gun I would be sceptical as to a Maastricht origin. Dutch pottery or for that matter any other cargo COULD have been used to conceal weapons in transit.

If you refer to my post above, I asked if you can verify the existance of Belgian proved Martinis from the many you have seen?

Stu

[yulzari]

Major General Syed Ali Hamid comments at https://www.thefridaytimes.com/gunru...crash-of-1910/ on the trade into the area generally.

Period reports of British origin make more references to Belgian Martinis. Belgium having a major arms industry making tens of thousands of Martinis annually. Many, if not most, Martinis today from Arabia are of Belgian make from my observations but others will be far more knowledgable on that matter.

See also the Doctoral thesis of James Ficus on 'Gun Running in Arabia' https://pdxscholar.library.pdx.edu/c...en_access_etds

[Kubur]

Sometimes people mismatch Holland and Belgium, or Belgium and France.
But actualy Belgium is a country...

I think i got something for you, they were made in Liege.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30031969

Commissioned from Francotte by Westley Richards, to fulfill an order reputed to be for 36,000 rifles from the Zuid Afrikaansche Republiek. Less than one third of these were actually delivered.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by yulzari

Major General Syed Ali Hamid comments at https://www.thefridaytimes.com/gunru...crash-of-1910/ on the trade into the area generally.

Period reports of British origin make more references to Belgian Martinis. Belgium having a major arms industry making tens of thousands of Martinis annually. Many, if not most, Martinis today from Arabia are of Belgian make from my observations but others will be far more knowledgable on that matter.

See also the Doctoral thesis of James Ficus on 'Gun Running in Arabia' https://pdxscholar.library.pdx.edu/c...en_access_etds

Thanks for the fine detail at the references which are a must see for members here...

https://www.thefridaytimes.com/gunr...-crash-of-1910/

'Gun Running in Arabia' https://pdxscholar.library.pdx.edu/c...en_access_etds[/QUOTE]

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Please see #95 which outlines the amazing fact that Muscat marked MH were made in Maastrict and smuggled into the region
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaam Ibrahim
Is it possible that Maastricht stamps were only export proofs???
as it was a port to ship the guns
and actualy the guns were made in Liege...

[kahnjar1]

Thank you Kubur for the link. These as stated, are Francotte Martinis and not Martini Henry Rifles. The action is different from the Martini Henry as described in the attached link. https://www.ima-usa.com/products/ori...nt=26168425541
So it is likely that at least some of the rifles featured in this thread are in fact Francottes rather than Martini Henrys. Only by having a particular weapon to hand would correctly identify which it is........
Francotte's factory was located in Liege Belgium.
Stu

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Salaam Ibrahim
Is it possible that Maastricht stamps were only export proofs???
as it was a port to ship the guns
and actualy the guns were made in Liege...

Yes I agree .Please see #108. The Pottery was made 10 Kilometres down the road at Maastricht and the weapons at Liege. The weapons were smuggled Oman under cover of the crates of pottery..