Old or new?

corrado26 · 23rd June 2019, 09:24 AM

and here comes the third pistol All three pistols are different but made in the same style.

Kubur · 23rd June 2019, 10:43 AM

Hi

You will find a good discussion about these pistols here
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=gasser
The conclusion was they were Montenegrins but they are not.
It was also said that they were Persians (the lion) but they are not.
They are Turkish Ottoman from Istanbul in the 1900-20ties.
They were made almost exclusively with old parts...
Look at them closely you will see many parts from Ottoman flintlocks.

Kubur

corrado26 · 23rd June 2019, 02:18 PM

Ok, if these pistols are made in Istanbul/Turkey, why were they made in the beginning of the 20th century when muzzleloaders certainly have no longer been the state of the art? Tourist items?

Kubur · 23rd June 2019, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

Ok, if these pistols are made in Istanbul/Turkey, why were they made in the beginning of the 20th century when muzzleloaders certainly have no longer been the state of the art? Tourist items?

yes

rickystl · 29th June 2019, 06:29 PM

Hi Corrado.

Somehow I missed this Thread. I agree with Kubur here. Early 20th Century Tourist pistols made to loosely resemble an Ottoman style. Much better quality than the later ones made about the 1950's to today. And as mentioned, often made with a combination of old original parts, and new made parts. While the locks were made functional, none of the primary working parts were hardened and tuned for use as a genuine firearm. Occasionally, one will turn up with an original barrel. But usually they were just steel pipe shaped to the desired fashion. From the top down, the locks on the first and third pistols looked to be 20th Century castings - though well done. But the second pistol has a genuine Turkish/Ottoman lock that was typical of the period style. See below.
Actually, you seldom run across these earlier tourist examples. So they could be considered somewhat collectable in their own rights. I guess by about the 1950's most of the original parts supply had dried up. Thus the introduction of the low grade tourists pistol as shown below, which I think are still be sold today.

You are probably aware of the similar fad during the Victorian Period where vast amounts of copies of guns/blades/armour were made to satisfy the decorator rage in Europe at the time. Often the guns would be made utilizing original locks. The blades and armour show up all the time at auctions.

Rick

rickystl · 29th June 2019, 06:32 PM

Later Tourist Pistol

Philip · 1st July 2019, 09:57 PM

Mr Corrado,
May I contribute a comment on the very first pistol, shown in several views, at the top of this thread --

I'm glad that you provided images of the lock because from this, I believe the gun to most likely be Indo-Portuguese, perhaps made by an artisan in Goa. Not only from the décor which has elements seen in furnishings and decorative arts from there, but more importantly, the construction of the lock itself.

The flintlock has all the characteristics of a uniquely Portuguese style of flintlock called a fecho de nó ( "knot" lock, unfortunately I do not know the etymology of this rather unusual term -- Fernando, can you help me out?) Characteristics include an internal mainspring with a typical "French" flintlock tumbler and sear arrangement (with half-cock detent, not the external Portuguese "brake" or swiveling safety dog). The odd "humpback" single leaf frizzen spring is also typically and perhaps uniquely Portuguese.

The fecho de nó originated in late 17th cent. Portugal, and is an amalgam of earlier stylistic elements, including the angular miquelet-style cock and the internal components of the mature flintlock. On your example, the styling of the cock has taken a more Frenchified shape, moving away from the normal Hispanicized form.

Quite an interesting thing! Thank you for posting it.

23rd June 2019, 09:24 AM	#1
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,231	and here comes the third pistol All three pistols are different but made in the same style. Attached Images

29th June 2019, 06:29 PM	#5
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,632	Hi Corrado. Somehow I missed this Thread. I agree with Kubur here. Early 20th Century Tourist pistols made to loosely resemble an Ottoman style. Much better quality than the later ones made about the 1950's to today. And as mentioned, often made with a combination of old original parts, and new made parts. While the locks were made functional, none of the primary working parts were hardened and tuned for use as a genuine firearm. Occasionally, one will turn up with an original barrel. But usually they were just steel pipe shaped to the desired fashion. From the top down, the locks on the first and third pistols looked to be 20th Century castings - though well done. But the second pistol has a genuine Turkish/Ottoman lock that was typical of the period style. See below. Actually, you seldom run across these earlier tourist examples. So they could be considered somewhat collectable in their own rights. I guess by about the 1950's most of the original parts supply had dried up. Thus the introduction of the low grade tourists pistol as shown below, which I think are still be sold today. You are probably aware of the similar fad during the Victorian Period where vast amounts of copies of guns/blades/armour were made to satisfy the decorator rage in Europe at the time. Often the guns would be made utilizing original locks. The blades and armour show up all the time at auctions. Rick Attached Images

29th June 2019, 06:32 PM	#6
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,632	Later Tourist Pistol Attached Images

1st July 2019, 09:57 PM	#7
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	more than meets the eye Mr Corrado, May I contribute a comment on the very first pistol, shown in several views, at the top of this thread -- I'm glad that you provided images of the lock because from this, I believe the gun to most likely be Indo-Portuguese, perhaps made by an artisan in Goa. Not only from the décor which has elements seen in furnishings and decorative arts from there, but more importantly, the construction of the lock itself. The flintlock has all the characteristics of a uniquely Portuguese style of flintlock called a fecho de nó ( "knot" lock, unfortunately I do not know the etymology of this rather unusual term -- Fernando, can you help me out?) Characteristics include an internal mainspring with a typical "French" flintlock tumbler and sear arrangement (with half-cock detent, not the external Portuguese "brake" or swiveling safety dog). The odd "humpback" single leaf frizzen spring is also typically and perhaps uniquely Portuguese. The fecho de nó originated in late 17th cent. Portugal, and is an amalgam of earlier stylistic elements, including the angular miquelet-style cock and the internal components of the mature flintlock. On your example, the styling of the cock has taken a more Frenchified shape, moving away from the normal Hispanicized form. Quite an interesting thing! Thank you for posting it.

23rd June 2019, 10:43 AM	#2
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi You will find a good discussion about these pistols here http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=gasser The conclusion was they were Montenegrins but they are not. It was also said that they were Persians (the lion) but they are not. They are Turkish Ottoman from Istanbul in the 1900-20ties. They were made almost exclusively with old parts... Look at them closely you will see many parts from Ottoman flintlocks. Kubur

23rd June 2019, 02:18 PM	#3
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,231	Ok, if these pistols are made in Istanbul/Turkey, why were they made in the beginning of the 20th century when muzzleloaders certainly have no longer been the state of the art? Tourist items?