Van Gogh ... or a gun without DNA tests ...

[fernando]

Applying logic to how a fellow commits suicide, or suffers homicide, meets more coherence within CSI series than within reality. Such episodes can happen in the most bizarre conditions and circumstances. For example, suppose the man, against all odds, decides to kill himself, as in actual life such unpredictable episodes occur, and the young men tried to prevent him from such desperate act, ending up triggering themselves the shot, as a result of such struggling, giving (i) logic to the odd place & angle in which the projectile entered Van Gogh's guts. The caliber of the bullet doesn't necessarily determine how long one resists to death ... only potentially. There are 'good' and 'bad' shots.
On the other hand, we are hypothetically assuming that the gun auctioned was actually the one used, which could have not. To say that, there also large pinfire (Lefaucheux system) revolvers (i had some), with so large, or even slightly larger caliber than cap & ball system .44 Colts (which i also had); and not only small versions, some even rather tinier than the show off but reportedly clumsy 'Apaches'.
On yet another hand, when you play Wild West, you do it with what you have at hand; even wooden guns. It's imagination that counts, not the caliber; to be (or not) ridiculous is not in the plans, i guess. When i was young, like others, so poor as not able to have a toy revolver, i used my forefinger to order 'hands up' to my foe and bring him into custody. But i am digressing .

[Jim McDougall]

Very good detective work, and of course logic is not always applicable in cases where something illogical is being investigated, suicide being far more so than homicide. Of course both can be irrational acts, but all things much be considered from various angles.
You have carried my suggestion of 'interaction' with these boys further, and I had not thought of the possibility they well might have been trying to stop him from suicide. A struggle ensued, and the gun discharged. That would explain the uncharacteristic angle of the wound, and that it was aimed at his stomach.
So, Inspector Poirot, I think you might have solved the case?

Then what of the pistol. I have illustrated a pinfire of the same size and presumably caliber of the one auctioned. The 'apache' theory is tenuously applied to suggest only ruffians of the times who indeed carried pinfire revolvers.
In the scenario you suggest, it well might have been dropped, and the boys frightened by the resulting shot, the gun not theirs, might simply have run. Van Gogh, knowing their intent and not wishing to implicate them, would have taken the blame. Not expecting to die, and incapacitated, he never thought more on the gun, so it remained in situ for years until c. 1960, covered by whatever vegetation was there in the field.

[Jim McDougall]

With interest in this curious case, I found more on the gun used, or alleged to have been:
In the book "Van Gogh: The Life" by Steven Naifeh and Gregory White Smith, the authors have meticulously researched and brought in forensic research assistance in subsequent rebuttals.

There seems to have been a great deal of competition (other artists acquainted with him) and opportunism with some of the rather inflated and contrived accounts of Van Gogh, his 'ear incident', his drinking and illnesses and of course, his alleged suicide.

Apparently he was often ridiculed by a local bully and his brother and small group of local miscreants. The main character was named Rene Secretan, son of a well to do family and who was intrigued by the 'wild west' after seeing the Buffalo Bill show in Paris the year before.
He bought costumes including chaps and western attire as well as outfitting himself with a SMALL CALIBER pistol, which 'looked menacing, but often misfired'.
This sounds very much like the 7mm Lefaucheaux pinfire revolver I was referring to. These were known for misfires, much as many of these small pocket pistols, which were cheap and profusely manufactured.

The boys taunted Van Gogh (calling him Toto) and he was acquainted with them despite that. Years later, Rene claimed that Van Gogh had gotten his gun, as he insisted he was not involved in the shooting.
There was no investigation records, however it was said that the gendarme who talked to him asked if he had intended suicide, to which Van Gogh said, "I think so".

The doctor who attended him did not note any black powder debris or presence near the wound, and the angle of the wound as well suggested he was not shot point black, but from a distance. Much of that information was obtained from him in 1920s as well as his son.

Apparently not only was the gun never found, but there were no paints or easel which indicated he was going to paint...in fact it was said he was not in the fields at all, but on the road to the Secretan villa.

While he was troubled with some obscure medical maladies, including the use of absinthe, popular with artists, medications used, lead poisoning, and others.....but a letter found in his coat was highly upbeat and inconsistent with suicidal tendencies.

These things suggest it was a small caliber pinfire used, but unlikely that it was dropped in the field by Van Gogh and probably kept by Rene. Rene had noted he was surprised the gun even fired with its unreliability, but not saying more on its whereabouts....still claiming Van Gogh had 'gotten' the gun from him.

The images are the "Auberge Ravoux" in Auvers-sr-Oise where Van Gogh was staying when he died. Here he returned after his 'wounding' which was how it was referred to at the time of the event.
Another image of the pistol of the discussion.

[fernando]

I will dare say that, while my theory was composed with feeble arguments, Naifeh & Smith findings are not less feeble, on what counts for the issue we have at hand; and calling them forensic is, i guess, a kind concession.
If the gun was brought from France, by known stats of cheap (Belgium?) production, reputedly a misfiring species, did not hesitate this time to the right job; Van Gogh to agree with such conclusion.
En passant, the dude that gave so much money for an excavated cheap pistol, on basis that it participated (?) in a famous event can, for a far less amount, have the gun examined to check for marks ... like the Liege poinçon, for one ?
So he was not painting in the fields but going on the road to the Secretan villa ... whether going to the house or only using that road. While this is interesting to fulfill empty spaces in the artist's biography, would not bring any light on the shooting episode or, one can say, makes one more tending to consider a road stalking ending with a homicide, than being seated and painting, with all time to introspect and decide to cease existing. I don't know.
One thing not determining but coherent is Van Goghs confiding that he 'might' have committed suicide, to prevent the boys getting into trouble; besides being a kind gesture from an intellectual, suits his fatality view of life. Wasn't the last words he pronounced to his brother "sadness for ever" ... or the like ?
Do we understand that, if according to the boys, Van Gogh had his own gun, this brings two pistols to the stage ? I don't think he was the type of owning a gun but, no one is the type until he is. Besides, the doctor's assumption that the shot was not point blank, only tightens the tangled knot; in the extreme, if the gun in the scene as one belonging to Van Gogh, the boys (or whoever) could have grabbed it and shoot the artist. On the other hand (quote)"a letter found in his coat was highly upbeat and inconsistent with suicidal tendencies", while not fully counting, as coming from a known inconsistent mind, is not a written text that we can read and judge by ourselves but a interpretation from an (un) suspected party.
The auberge where he had lately lived and died, together with some of his occupants and his interesting stories involving their interaction with the artist, makes part of the movie i mentioned. Whether fictional in part or totally, as all movies, is an interesting piece of history ... and an excellent participation of Dafoe.

[Jim McDougall]

I will not say these theories are comprised of 'feeble elements', these are 'considerations' which must be entertained together and investigated, corroborated and evaluated, often repeatedly working toward resolution. While I looked through various references which have all carried out investigation and worked angles, this book by these two authors is by far the most thorough in my opinion.Further they have continued responding to rebuttals and often almost radical and vicious responses by parties who are protecting the enigma of Van Gogh.

It is often the case that the enigma, and tragic circumstances in many elaborate historic matters are often guarded as the very element of their mystery, which draws more interest and attention. There is a strong opposition to 'revisionist' history which is often employed in what is known as the 'art' of historical detection, where these kinds of situations are in effect forensically examined.

It is good to have our perspectives interact, as we are evaluating each pole in the case, and bringing our understanding of it closer. As always, as I have said for years here, it is not about who is right or wrong, it is bringing the most reasonable and plausible solution to the fore.

These authors have responded well to critique, and solidly continued research and 'historical detection' in more thorough support , whether for or against their case. It is essential (as I was once told) that a good author also present the positions held in opposition to their own theory, and ideally present their own rebuttal systematically and in further support accordingly.

Van Gogh did not have a gun, and one of the recurring notes in many of the accounts I have seen reflect this. There was much competition and rivalry involved in the art community, and one artist, who created much of the material for later accounts embellished and used in the long held views, negatively of Van Gogh, claimed he was 'crazy' and demeaning postures.

The doctor who attended him was also a personal acquaintance who, along with his young son, had both participated in certain of his works. Apparently after the death, the doctor scurried those paintings away, and in later years as the 'mystique' evolved, the son perpetuated same to bolster the value of the works. That is much of what the development and mystery of all this involved...and personal tragedy elevates art value proportionally of course.

It was shown that Rene Secretan was enthralled with the wild west, much as were many French youngsters of the years ahead (my reason for adding the 'apache' phenomenon which evolved in similar manner). That he took to wearing western 'costume' and acquiring a SMALL caliber revolver lends to the potential for the scenario in which Van Gogh was wounded, seems key.
As he was interiewed years later, he of course denied shooting Van Gogh, but did admit Van Gogh GOT the gun from him.

It really is irrelevant if this was a Liege product, as most were indeed made there. However most of these pocket guns. much like the 'suicide specials' similar pocket pistols used in America, they were typically unmarked.
The very similar 'suicide specials' were also cheap, known for misfires (hence the name suicide specials) and as open wearing of guns was prohibited, and these were what was typically carried for protection in saloons etc.

Turning here to Hollywood, as well as the highly embellished written works that inspired movies, virtually most elements (especially in earlier examples) used fervent license in the drama and popular notions that served well in the theatrical entertainment. In westerns, it was all about the gunfight (they were NEVER called gunfighters in those days) and the supposed 'showdown' with quick draw and fancy twirling of the gun (neither really took place).
Guns were not worn in pairs in holsters in the towns, it was unlawful. That was the very reason for the OK Corral shootout, and Wyatt Earp was NOT wearing a Colt in a holster...it was a Smith & Wesson in his coat pocket.

The point here is that embellishment and drama are what sells, and feed the public fascination. While Rene's pistol was what was available, it was hardly conducive to 'wild west' theatrics...………….how do you 'twirl' a small pocket pistol with no trigger guard?

Point well taken on the character of the letter found, which was far from 'suicidal' . Actually he was prone to what is known as hypergraphia, an incessant propensity to write in volume (perhaps my own dilemma ) and is thought to possibly relate to his medical issues. The volume of his letters etc, is immense, and in none were mention or thoughts of suicide. Artists are known to be moody, often morose, and dramatic, but despite any such elements, he seemed to have abhorred the notion of suicide.
While the self mutilation would suggest such ideas, it is unproven, in the same manner as this shooting, that he actually did this.
In fact, as it occurred close to an altercation with Gaugin, it is possible he was the one responsible, and again Van Gogh protected him.

Perhaps I have misunderstood some of the material from the book, but I think each person studying this event must thoroughly follow their own perceptions. In truth, we may never know, but I would consider this particular gun with the necessary caveats.
Whatever the case, as with many of my own investigations of historic items, it is 'of the period.....and of the type'.

[fernando]

It is true that Naifeh & Smith, in their biographic work, refute the suicide as being a plausible argument. However, after reading a couple synopsis about their work versus a (more) plausible story, some discrepancies claim pertinence.
It is consensual that brother René was the diabolic type (in opposition to friendly Gaston). He had a taste for harassing the weak ones, and he was a leader of a local trouble making gang. Besides his current occupations, like squirrel hunting and target shooting, he enjoyed to 'gift' Van Gogh, despite also showing some admiration proximity with the artist, with salt in his coffee, snakes in his paint box and pepper in his brushes. He also used (quote) to run up and down wearing a complete cowboy outfit, including a .38 caliber, which he got through the Inn owner, Gustave Ravoux.. Here to consider that, to whom Ravoux actually sold, or loan, or which gun, remains somehow obscure. Thinking that the (one) has belonged or was in possession of Van Gogh seems rather unlikely ... but possible, based for one, in one version that René loan it to him to scare off the crows that harassed him in the fields.
On the other hand, i don't how in hell a .38 caliber comes in the picture, an if Ravoux had more than one gun in his chest, but in such case, René had a proper gun to twirl, as if this added some sense to the true story.
Concerning the doctor's report in that the wound was made by a small caliber gun, penetrating in his superior abdomen, in an obliquous angle, that went to lodge near his vertebral column, is not consensually accepted as being result of homicide; known different opinions explain how such was feasible, in case of suicide.
Also noteworthy that Van Gogh didn't receive the shot, as it was believed, in the wheat field near a cemitery as, according to two witnesses, such happened in the so called Vila Chaponval, some 900 yards from the Inn, in an alley (Rue Boucher), precisely a spot that René often frequented. This brings the question: have they eventually met there and their differences resulted in a fatal struggle ?. Notwithstanding Madame Liberge (one of the witnesse's daughter), while attesting that the incident did not take place in front of the cemetery, stated that he truly entered a small yard in the said street, hiding behind a dunghill, having then commited the act that took him to die hours later.
Other inconsistencies in the homicide version are advanced, namely through a more analytic reading of the famous last letter, and his previous symbolic suicide act by swallowing his paint.
So it seems as both the biographers book and the auctioned pistol fall into the Caveat Emptor category .

On a different note, to conclude that the gun in discussion, being a Liege product is an irrelevant factor, as also typically unmarked, is something i am not able to digest.
Being made in Liege is not irrelevant ... at all, as i fail to agree that Liege products were not marked, even humble outputs (as per own witnessing), when we consider that Napoleon having stepped in, in the period concerned, imposed hard rules in the matter. Indeed in such period a boom of production took place, in quality of all grades, and not only unreliable cheap versions. Actually the Lefaucheux 7 m/m caliber was a secondary version. The actual model, as it first came out, was a large 12 m/m, which reached a huge success, being exported to multiple countries, namely to the USA for their Civil War, being issued to cavalry soldiers, especially in the states of Illinois, Kansas, Kentucky, Missouri, and Wisconsin. Remember that by then, as even since 1854, this pistol was notable as being the first revolver to use self-contained metallic cartridges rather than loose powder, pistol ball, and percussion caps. It was only in after the said war (circa 1870's) that the Colt manufacturer came in the scene with the cartridge ammunition, long after father Samuel has died; in fact we can read that he was reluctant to change his pistol ignition system, on grounds that out in the prairie, the common men were able to depend only only themselves to fabricate their own ammo using self obtained lead & powder raw materials.
Concerning the (forbidden) wearing of two pistols, one must first ponder on these inventions time line. While at a later period cartridge ammo pistol reloading was so fast as in rather less than one minute, cap & ball reloading was a saga, an unfeasible procedure to take place in battle, not to say in a eventual gun fight. One can read chronicles in that the wearing of more than one (or two) pistols also happened, as inevitably what a man could do each time he spent out his 5 or 6 rounds, was to to get rid of that gun and immediately go for the next one. Although it is right that Mr. Wyatt Earp, by the time the Tombstone fight took place, equipped with a 'modern' cartridge Smith & Wesson, it is not surprising that he carried it in his coat pocket as, in fact, he was not the central (law) figure, but his brother Virgil, who was the patent local authority, one who certainly carried his gun in a belt holster. Notwithstanding that Wyatt, while in his youth, must have carried the then available cap & ball version .. maybe even a couple of them.
Exception made to the less charismatic but, by far, more effective Remington; apart from its more solid and resistant solid-frame (topstrap) feature, it had the huge advantage of being possible to remove its cylinder, in order to quickly replace it with a pre-loaded spare unit, an operation that could be repeated, depending on the number of spare cylinders one had in one's bag. But justice be made to Samuel Colt, who possessed excellent dealer abilities, always ending up wining army contracts, like also the one in Britain, against the equally solid frame Adams.
On the issue of Hollywood westerns, where it is all about exuberant gunfights where quick draw and fancy twirling of the gun are a vending factor to attract public fascination, i remember once, in a moment of candidness, John Wayne telling his young admirer: this is not about how fast you draw ... but how accurately you take your aim.

.

[Jim McDougall]

Very thorough Fernando, and its great to keep our discussion going. It is a fascinating topic and actually, I had never known there was any question about Van Gogh's death. As many people, I had known only of his medical issues and the 'ear incident', so presumed that suicide was pretty expectable situation.

In searching further I found another book "Morgue:A Life in Death" by Ron Fransell, along with Dr. Vincent DiMaio, an expert in gunshot forensics. In some of the text reviewing this book, the .380 caliber gun which Mssr. Ravoux sold Rene Secretan, he claimed was 'faulty' and used just for hunting squirrels and rabbits.
Rene claimed Van Gogh stole it from his rucksack, presumably for the tricks and taunting he had endured from him. When he was interviewed many years later, he claimed that he and his brother had gone to Paris the day of the shooting, and had not heard of it until they saw it in a Paris newspaper.
There has never been evidence of such a report ever found in any paper, and the suggestion begs he question, why would the accidental shooting of an unknown and pretty much raggedy painter in a rural area bring the attention of a Paris newspaper?

Going to the gun sold at auction, described as a 7mm Lefaucheaux a broche revolver, found in 1965 in the field where Van Gogh was shot, and the bullet found in his body MATCHED?

When Van Gogh was examined after returning apparently in pain to the Inn, it was said there was very little if any blood. The discoloration around the wound was claimed to be from point blank discharge of a weapon, but forensically this is normal for any penetration wound. As mentioned, no powder evidence.
The reason Van Gogh died is that the wound became septic, as no surgeon was available, and the bullet was NOT removed. With his death, there was no reason to remove the bullet. As far as known ,it is still in the remains.

So how is the auction gun matched to the caliber that killed Van Gogh, and if the gun he allegedly stole from Rene was a .380 cal, how can the 7mm gun be the one?

That discrepancy is the issue I meant when noting the Liege mfg. relevance. If the 'death gun' was a .380, it does not matter if it was made in Liege, and of course if the auction gun is Lefaucheax, it would not be made in Liege.
Not ALL Liege guns are marked, there are cases of unmarked, despite the regulation being carried out. I have had the impression that there are many makers and shops there, and with cheap products in volume, such protocol was not necessarily faithfully observed. Rather like the blade 'blanks' produced in Solingen and stamped elsewhere.

The John Wayne quote was paraphrased from Wyatt Earp , perhaps mentioned in the largely fictional Stuart Lake 'biography' (1931) where he expresses his disdain for theatrics and speed in gun fighting. He claimed 'fast is fine, but accuracy is everything......in a gunfight you need to take your time...in a hurry!'. Earp was of course an advisor in Hollywood in the 20s for 'western' movies, and young Marion Morrison (John Wayne) me him, and was spellbound by the aged legends tales. Chances are the quote was actually from the man himself.

At the OK Corral in 1881, Wyatt, Morgan and Holliday all had pocketed guns, while Virgil had his in waistband. The 'cowboys' were wearing holstered guns...the root of the issue, among other problems between the factions.

But again we digress still fun talking about these things. As we are soon to roll the bookmobile westward, one of our first stops will be in Hico. Texas, where 'Brushy Bill' is buried. He died claiming he was the real William Bonney (aka Billy the Kid) . We also hit Ft. Sumner New Mexico where Bonney's grave is. Problem is, it is a cenotaph, his remains (?) were lost when the PecosRiver looded in 1904.
Another mystery!!!


PS, in your #4, the image showing a 'Lefaucheaux' being thrown into the river is surely one of the'big' ones of earlier you spoke of.