Ottoman kilij blade with ( Kufic) calligraphy, syrian presentation case ?

Lee · 20th June 2019, 02:46 AM

Just an aside, I bought a similar box devoid of the sword several years ago at the Brimfield flea market for $100. I attribute that box as Syrian and not more than a few decades old. The dealer said it had contained a 'very nice' sword that had been presented to someone who had worked in the Middle East and that she had sold the sword for 'good money' previously (not at the same flea market.) It seemed a shame to me that for that valuation of the box that it was not kept with the sword, but, then again, it fits my old Saudi saif perfectly. I'll never know if my sword was an upgrade or downgrade...

francantolin · 20th June 2019, 08:11 AM

Hello and thank you all,

I thought too about a gift box for diplomats or business men working in middle east.

The friend who bought this ''presentation'' box with the blade told me it was sold as a lot in an auction: sold with an old wood Koran stand ( egyptian or syrian he thinks).

He collects antiques-oriental furnitures and paintings,
edged weapons are not really his interest...
So I bought it...

francantolin · 20th June 2019, 08:12 AM

Glad Lee,
if you share a picture of your saif and the box,
I must be really nice !!

francantolin · 20th June 2019, 08:13 AM

Thank you Alex !

ALEX · 20th June 2019, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francantolin

Thank you Alex !

You're most welcome!
Also, I had similar blade with similar welded tang. The blade was antique wootz of similar pattern, it was also Persian or Syrian, and I know that the weld repair was done in Syria in the late 1900's, as it was common practice there to "restore" that way. I believe yours came by the same way.
Also, congrats on buying it. A profound bargain, and even includes the free presentation box

sfenoid13 · 25th June 2019, 07:09 AM

Just because the blade is Damascus steel or wootz doesn’t mean it’s an antique piece. There are many bladesmiths in Syria and Turkey still make very good Damascus steel blades. I have to agree that this is a replica of a pala /kilic/shamshir. Definitely modern made. Have seen better ones new for sale in Turkey. If you like what you see and understand what it is yes you can still buy it but dont think it’s a 200 year old sword. Other than that yes well made blade

And the gold writings are not Ottoman.

mariusgmioc · 25th June 2019, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sfenoid13

Just because the blade is Damascus steel or wootz doesn’t mean it’s an antique piece. There are many bladesmiths in Syria and Turkey still make very good Damascus steel blades. I have to agree that this is a replica of a pala /kilic/shamshir. Definitely modern made. Have seen better ones new for sale in Turkey. If you like what you see and understand what it is yes you can still buy it but dont think it’s a 200 year old sword. Other than that yes well made blade

And the gold writings are not Ottoman.

No, there aren't ANY bladesmiths that can replicate the patterns of old wootz! Not a single one! And definitely not in Syria or Turkey.

The Georgian Zaqro Nonikashvili is arguably the best modern maker of wootz, but still his blades are quite far from the old wootz. The Russian Ivan Kirpichev comes close by, as there are a couple of Scandinavian smiths. There are a few lesser known Indian smiths who can make fairly good wootz but it is mostly of the crystalline type or sham. The same goes for the few American smiths.

I am quite positive this IS an old blade (significantly older than 200 years), and judging by its shape and decoration, I would dare to say it is around 300 years old.

And yes, the pattern of the wootz appears to be Persian (larger streaks of watering pattern as opposed to very fine streaks in Indian wootz). With quality etching it my reveal it to be Kara Taban or Kara Khorasan. A very, very high quality blade.

My two cents.

Lee · 25th June 2019, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francantolin

Glad Lee,
if you share a picture of your saif and the box,
I must be really nice !!

I'll have to take some pictures of the presentation box, but the
saif was previously presented in this thread

mariusgmioc · 26th June 2019, 07:44 PM

After looking closer to the photos, I have reasons to believe that the tip of the blade had originally an yelman and the blade was later reshaped to a simple tipped point.

ariel · 26th June 2019, 08:15 PM

I think you might be right.

Kubur · 28th June 2019, 02:31 PM

Wrong tip, wrong shape, wrong tang, wrong writtings but this sword is a good catch... mmmm I have a different opinion and I guess that this forum is open to different opinions...

But I have to confess: good wootz, so it's a nice piece of wootz and it's not too bad...

20th June 2019, 02:46 AM	#1
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 932	Just an aside, I bought a similar box devoid of the sword several years ago at the Brimfield flea market for $100. I attribute that box as Syrian and not more than a few decades old. The dealer said it had contained a 'very nice' sword that had been presented to someone who had worked in the Middle East and that she had sold the sword for 'good money' previously (not at the same flea market.) It seemed a shame to me that for that valuation of the box that it was not kept with the sword, but, then again, it fits my old Saudi saif perfectly. I'll never know if my sword was an upgrade or downgrade...

20th June 2019, 08:11 AM	#2
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 905	Hello and thank you all, I thought too about a gift box for diplomats or business men working in middle east. The friend who bought this ''presentation'' box with the blade told me it was sold as a lot in an auction: sold with an old wood Koran stand ( egyptian or syrian he thinks). He collects antiques-oriental furnitures and paintings, edged weapons are not really his interest... So I bought it...

20th June 2019, 08:12 AM	#3
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 905	Glad Lee, if you share a picture of your saif and the box, I must be really nice !!

20th June 2019, 08:13 AM	#4
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 905	Thank you Alex !

25th June 2019, 07:09 AM	#6
sfenoid13 Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 134	Just because the blade is Damascus steel or wootz doesn’t mean it’s an antique piece. There are many bladesmiths in Syria and Turkey still make very good Damascus steel blades. I have to agree that this is a replica of a pala /kilic/shamshir. Definitely modern made. Have seen better ones new for sale in Turkey. If you like what you see and understand what it is yes you can still buy it but dont think it’s a 200 year old sword. Other than that yes well made blade And the gold writings are not Ottoman.

26th June 2019, 07:44 PM	#9
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	After looking closer to the photos, I have reasons to believe that the tip of the blade had originally an yelman and the blade was later reshaped to a simple tipped point.

26th June 2019, 08:15 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I think you might be right.

28th June 2019, 02:31 PM	#11
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Wrong tip, wrong shape, wrong tang, wrong writtings but this sword is a good catch... mmmm I have a different opinion and I guess that this forum is open to different opinions... But I have to confess: good wootz, so it's a nice piece of wootz and it's not too bad...