Maranao Datu? Kris

tom hyle · 23rd January 2005, 02:41 PM

With enough money, it's usually possible to come up with pretty much whatever research and whatever results you want, genetic or otherwise.
I personally believe that, at least in most nations (Australians make a possible notable exception, for instance, having perhaps never had kings over them before a couple hundred years ago, and conspicuously foreign ones then.), every human is descended of slaves and of kings. Likewise, everthing has been in some sense, at some point, stolen, and you must decide, I guess where the line accrues; we all steal life just to eat. We live on stolen land, bought in blood. All of us. Those who rent may still feel a twinge, if they think too much. How far back do you want to go? The Latins used to have a saying about the concept of "dirty money". "Money doesn't stink," they said. I have mixed feelings about the concept that buying antiques (as contrasted to literally stealing them) constitutes an assault upon the seller's cultural heritage. I must say that it is VASTLY my observation on the worldwide antique scene that the source of the majority of old stuff on the market (granted, this is slanted by it being stuff I can afford, but I have not found that tightly bounded by quality or even fanciness) is people for whom it is old junk they do not respect and do not want. And yes, I've acquired rusty old "junk" as junk, at junk prices, coming out of ancestor-worshipping central Africa, as well as Indonesia and PI. And yes, it was good stuff. Don't get me wrong; theives suck; Oh, I've been stolen from

but it's an awful complicated ethical issue when you really think about it, and drawing the line may not be as simple as it seems.

Ian · 23rd January 2005, 09:16 PM

Sorry to come in a little late on this one. Traveling again. Dan and I had a lot of fun doing the rounds in Manila a few weeks ago.

As Dan has said, this sword came from one of Manila's best edged weapon dealers with whom I have dealt for many years. Mr Ven had obtained it only a few days before we went to his shop, and this one came from the back room where he puts away expensive pieces for his local and international clients who can afford the better class items he finds.

Having handled this one, I am sure that the blade is 100+ years old. It has a separate gangya and a dark patina with no pitting, although a little active rust on the gangya (probably related to recent storage). The edge was straight and showed no dings or evidence of extensive wear/sharpening. Balance was good, and the blade felt lively despite being of quite heavy construction.

The pommel is old ivory, with prominent linear age cracks and a nice golden patina, and the silver appears to be older work also with wear from handling (as Dan stated).

The scabbard is probably a replacement, but a nicely made one none the less. Simple, well carved, nice dark patina to the wood, and silver fittings (or at least silver-plated). This is better than the recent work coming out of Mindanao, and looks circa WWII to me based on other examples I have that were well provenanced.

So I think Dan has acquired a nice Maranao kris with blade and hilt c. 1900 and scabbard perhaps somewhat later. Whether datu quality is hard to say. Certainly, much better than average in terms of the quality of fittings on the hilt.

The dealer also felt the blade was around 100 years old, but the scabbard was not as old.

Ian.

Federico · 23rd January 2005, 10:43 PM

Datu class can be bought in a round about way. A prime example was Datu Piang, or Datu Pedro around the turn of the century. Though more pronounced in the case of Datu Piang, who was the child of a slave. With enough wealth, particularly Datu Piang, he improved his own standing through marriage, and then subsequently improved his children's standing through arranging upward marriages for them. The role of wealth really comes out through dowry prices. Poor datus need money, marriage to rich people becomes a win win situation.

As for backwards channels of money, shabu, kidnappings, and smuggling are very good ways to make money these days that are not as traceable as selling ones family heirlooms. I am Pilipino, and very much aware how family connections work in PI. But at a certain extent, things die down the further away one is related. A seventh cousin, five times removed may be able to get a few bucks from a richer relative, but to sell ones family heirloom, particularly if one still follows old traditions? Moroland would not be in as such dire straits if people were truly that magnaminous, yet one hears all the time of Muslim brothers living in Manila ghettos. I know I can only give so much to poor relations, and at a certain point, with my own child to feed it does become a question of the fact that you are still only my seventh cousin five times removed. Utang na loob, is not some mysterious blood debt as some Westerners would have it described, and while has meanings, is often not as strong as some would believe. I know a good test is at funerals. When my own father died, I watched who truly paid back their debts through their respects, and who were false and did not. Unfortunately, the number who were false, and knew only how to ask was quite high. Chismis and lipservices is just as common as Utang, though not paying attention to utang will destroy what little chance you have to move forward.

Anyways, as I stated before, old blades in newer made fittings, which in turn are made of older materials (eg. old ivory or wood), are becoming more and more common. These are the blades targetted towards the doctors, lawyers, and those with money, and have been popping up more and more in recent years. These are the trickiest pieces, and as with all the debate this piece is pulling up, are the most difficult to detect. I am glad to hear there was not a story put along with the blade. In itself it is great quality work, which is a testament ot Mr. Ven's integrity, as many other dealers will give a story. And in itself has quality that is inate. My primary concern is knowledge that, A. it is not completely original and B. many out there will use the upgrade as a selling point. Almost all the dealers in antiques in PI, have a similar story. An old Moro comes around, and that's how they buy their swords. For the vast majority of them it is not safe to go deep into Moroland. But there are some who do, it is from those I have heard and seen pictures of these pieces being cobbled together. It is from other collectors that who have seen people tear apart old pieces, re-hilt them, age them, and then pass them off as original that makes me wary. Hence my little warning, that the practice occurs. Now with rapid turnover, and the precarious nature of dealing, I can understand that stuff creeps in, even amongst the most honest, hence the need to be always alert.

23rd January 2005, 09:16 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,456	Nice piece Dan ... Sorry to come in a little late on this one. Traveling again. Dan and I had a lot of fun doing the rounds in Manila a few weeks ago. As Dan has said, this sword came from one of Manila's best edged weapon dealers with whom I have dealt for many years. Mr Ven had obtained it only a few days before we went to his shop, and this one came from the back room where he puts away expensive pieces for his local and international clients who can afford the better class items he finds. Having handled this one, I am sure that the blade is 100+ years old. It has a separate gangya and a dark patina with no pitting, although a little active rust on the gangya (probably related to recent storage). The edge was straight and showed no dings or evidence of extensive wear/sharpening. Balance was good, and the blade felt lively despite being of quite heavy construction. The pommel is old ivory, with prominent linear age cracks and a nice golden patina, and the silver appears to be older work also with wear from handling (as Dan stated). The scabbard is probably a replacement, but a nicely made one none the less. Simple, well carved, nice dark patina to the wood, and silver fittings (or at least silver-plated). This is better than the recent work coming out of Mindanao, and looks circa WWII to me based on other examples I have that were well provenanced. So I think Dan has acquired a nice Maranao kris with blade and hilt c. 1900 and scabbard perhaps somewhat later. Whether datu quality is hard to say. Certainly, much better than average in terms of the quality of fittings on the hilt. The dealer also felt the blade was around 100 years old, but the scabbard was not as old. Ian.

23rd January 2005, 02:41 PM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	With enough money, it's usually possible to come up with pretty much whatever research and whatever results you want, genetic or otherwise. I personally believe that, at least in most nations (Australians make a possible notable exception, for instance, having perhaps never had kings over them before a couple hundred years ago, and conspicuously foreign ones then.), every human is descended of slaves and of kings. Likewise, everthing has been in some sense, at some point, stolen, and you must decide, I guess where the line accrues; we all steal life just to eat. We live on stolen land, bought in blood. All of us. Those who rent may still feel a twinge, if they think too much. How far back do you want to go? The Latins used to have a saying about the concept of "dirty money". "Money doesn't stink," they said. I have mixed feelings about the concept that buying antiques (as contrasted to literally stealing them) constitutes an assault upon the seller's cultural heritage. I must say that it is VASTLY my observation on the worldwide antique scene that the source of the majority of old stuff on the market (granted, this is slanted by it being stuff I can afford, but I have not found that tightly bounded by quality or even fanciness) is people for whom it is old junk they do not respect and do not want. And yes, I've acquired rusty old "junk" as junk, at junk prices, coming out of ancestor-worshipping central Africa, as well as Indonesia and PI. And yes, it was good stuff. Don't get me wrong; theives suck; Oh, I've been stolen from but it's an awful complicated ethical issue when you really think about it, and drawing the line may not be as simple as it seems.

23rd January 2005, 10:43 PM	#3
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Datu class can be bought in a round about way. A prime example was Datu Piang, or Datu Pedro around the turn of the century. Though more pronounced in the case of Datu Piang, who was the child of a slave. With enough wealth, particularly Datu Piang, he improved his own standing through marriage, and then subsequently improved his children's standing through arranging upward marriages for them. The role of wealth really comes out through dowry prices. Poor datus need money, marriage to rich people becomes a win win situation. As for backwards channels of money, shabu, kidnappings, and smuggling are very good ways to make money these days that are not as traceable as selling ones family heirlooms. I am Pilipino, and very much aware how family connections work in PI. But at a certain extent, things die down the further away one is related. A seventh cousin, five times removed may be able to get a few bucks from a richer relative, but to sell ones family heirloom, particularly if one still follows old traditions? Moroland would not be in as such dire straits if people were truly that magnaminous, yet one hears all the time of Muslim brothers living in Manila ghettos. I know I can only give so much to poor relations, and at a certain point, with my own child to feed it does become a question of the fact that you are still only my seventh cousin five times removed. Utang na loob, is not some mysterious blood debt as some Westerners would have it described, and while has meanings, is often not as strong as some would believe. I know a good test is at funerals. When my own father died, I watched who truly paid back their debts through their respects, and who were false and did not. Unfortunately, the number who were false, and knew only how to ask was quite high. Chismis and lipservices is just as common as Utang, though not paying attention to utang will destroy what little chance you have to move forward. Anyways, as I stated before, old blades in newer made fittings, which in turn are made of older materials (eg. old ivory or wood), are becoming more and more common. These are the blades targetted towards the doctors, lawyers, and those with money, and have been popping up more and more in recent years. These are the trickiest pieces, and as with all the debate this piece is pulling up, are the most difficult to detect. I am glad to hear there was not a story put along with the blade. In itself it is great quality work, which is a testament ot Mr. Ven's integrity, as many other dealers will give a story. And in itself has quality that is inate. My primary concern is knowledge that, A. it is not completely original and B. many out there will use the upgrade as a selling point. Almost all the dealers in antiques in PI, have a similar story. An old Moro comes around, and that's how they buy their swords. For the vast majority of them it is not safe to go deep into Moroland. But there are some who do, it is from those I have heard and seen pictures of these pieces being cobbled together. It is from other collectors that who have seen people tear apart old pieces, re-hilt them, age them, and then pass them off as original that makes me wary. Hence my little warning, that the practice occurs. Now with rapid turnover, and the precarious nature of dealing, I can understand that stuff creeps in, even amongst the most honest, hence the need to be always alert.