Waterloo or not...

[kronckew]

Cannon balls literally carpeted the Valley of Death, many rolling back downhill and collecting on the valley floor. This one is almost the same location as the earlier photo, but before the EOD teams cleaned up the road.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by kronckew

Cannon balls literally carpeted the Valley of Death, many rolling back downhill and collecting on the valley floor. This one is the same as the earlier photo, but before they cleaned up the road.

Wayne this is a most interesting perspective. There is indeed an alternate photograph without the cannon balls scattered, however in the investigations which I read, it was suggested this photo was taken BEFORE the balls were placed in array for a more 'provocative'(?) photo.

In looking at the photo, it does seem that some of the ordnance is somewhat imbedded in the dirt or ground material. If these were placed strategically for the purpose of a photographic image, would they have had such evidence of settling into the surface dirt? Meanwhile those balls on what appears to be the main 'travelled' part of the road remain superficially situated ( harder dirt?).

The suggestion that given the hilly terrain, the spent balls would have likely rolled downward after impact and loss of velocity, is well placed. But that so many seem to have all hit in the same place and rolled backward en masse seems somewhat suspect, though still plausible.

The trajectory and distances that cannon shot would travel, even though low velocity, is remarkable. Even a slow moving ball could effect traumatic injury past its established range, often they could even be seen moving along in flight.
My GG grandfather, who fought through the Civil War, and lived to very old age (died 1941) was interviewed about his recollections and asked if he was ever wounded said, he was....."got hit by a cannon ball once, but didn't hurt me none'!! Clearly the ball was beyond spent, and at the end of its flight.

I think the point is that regardless of how certain relics or objects which have provenance to a certain event or campaign are displayed, they still have inherent historical importance. We cannot possibly determine (usually) what the intent of such assemblies or displays might be, and can only try to appreciate whatever inherent value might exist.

With art, the purpose is to elicit certain emotional, sensitive and other subjective reactions in the viewer. Clearly those results have been accomplished here, thus is the essence of 'art', and well done.


We do all see things through different prisms, and myself as both artist and arms historian (only in degree in both) I am inclined to see subjects from an artistic perspective, and often overtly optimistic.

A quote I have long kept best describes:
"...I was once told that it was said of Laking (Sir Guy Laking, British arms historian and collector) that he would always find something kind to say about a fellow collectors object".
"Arms and Armor Study in Edwardian Britain"
Sid Blair & Michael Lacy (1999).

Laking was one of the early 'greats' in arms collecting and well known author of many long venerated articles and references, who I very much admired from my own early beginnings in collecting.

[kronckew]

I almost added an "or after" after the before ; I figured you'd comment .

Journalists have always spiced up their photos, right up to now. one got fired not long back when they found he was holed up in a posh hotel far from the front in the sandpit and staging photos to 'illustrate' his second hand stories.

I heard they moved bones a lot in Cambodia to make it more concentrated and less spread out 'for dramatic purposes' after it was safe for them to go back..

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kronckew

... Journalists have always spiced up their photos, right up to now. one got fired not long back when they found he was holed up in a posh hotel far from the front in the sandpit and staging photos to 'illustrate' his second hand stories.
I heard they moved bones a lot in Cambodia to make it more concentrated and less spread out 'for dramatic purposes' after it was safe for them to go back..

Wayne old chum, i know you are a well versed dude.
Grapeshot, reportedly (also) used in Sebastopol, has a 200 meters (minus) range. From this on, solid shot is used, which can reach with efficacy a minimum 200 meters, going a few hundred more. When used in close quarters, like it is written in Peninsular War records, within 50-50 meters (French forces in Vimeiro), and even as close as 40 steps (Allied forces, left flank in Buçaco), the result is devastating, to the extent that, the parts of bodies mutilated in first the line hit the ones in the back equally with lethal results. But when these volleys found no obstacle in front they would fly low for a while and then landed, rolling endlessly and catching as many enemies as they can find in their path. However, realizing that such erratic course would make them all fall down the hill and stop in line on the same slope, is like believing in an act of God.
Concerning photo fixing, it takes a wise man to define the thinness of the line between staging and forgering. I like your mentioning the number of journalists spicing their photos, the position 'adjusting' of the Cambodian bones and all. On the one hand, you have such characters doing it all for scoring audience points and, on the other, you have these hawks doing whatever it takes to make their dirty bucks. I compare a side note made by Ariel the other day, reminding us that, (quote) in the Old City of Jerusalem one can buy aluminum cans with “ The air that Jesus breathed” (unquote) with the relics from (Portuguese) Fatima sanctuary, containing earth from the sacred place the Lady appeared.
On a different note, it doesn't take any illuminated scholar to tell us that we must always have a kind word for our fellow collector's item. One thing is to offer our insignificant knowledge about it, with sincere honesty and exempt of all sarcasm, the other is illude him by saying his piece is an excellent acquisition. It is best he faces reality and learns from it, preventing him from carrying on acquiring mediocre stuff, giving him a hand to discern what is good and what is a dud. We are all grown ups around here; no lollipops needed.

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[Via Dixiane]

hi everyone,

that's great, i learnt quite a few things thanks to all of you.

The reason i had to believe it came from Waterloo in the first place was that there are quite a lot a memorabilia from it. I did not know the Crimean war also had the same phenomenon.

When it come to journalists, due to my experience in former Yugoslavia i know that they like to show things according a certain "angle".

[fernando]

You are welcome to show us further acquisitions, Va Dixiane .

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Via Dixiane

hi everyone,

that's great, i learnt quite a few things thanks to all of you.

The reason i had to believe it came from Waterloo in the first place was that there are quite a lot a memorabilia from it. I did not know the Crimean war also had the same phenomenon.

When it come to journalists, due to my experience in former Yugoslavia i know that they like to show things according a certain "angle".

I am glad for what I could add here, and while the display apparently was not from Waterloo as you had hoped, the Crimean War was also rich in historical context. For me personally it was exciting to revisit the extensive research I enjoyed on both over many years. The memorabilia phenomenon is of course pretty universal in the human experience as nostalgia and curiosity effects most people in one way or another.

I thank you for sharing this item here, and giving us a chance to learn from it.

I would add that it seems a number of these 'arrangements' of ordnance from Crimean War context appear to be 'marketed' online with similar setup and brass plaques.
Perhaps these might imitate earlier such displays of actual souvenirs from the Crimea which became prototypes for these 'marketed' arrangements.

An interesting instance found under "War Tourism" (Wiki):
"...during the Crimean War, tourists led by Mark Twain visited the wrecked city of Sevastopol- he even scolded his travel mates for walking off with SOUVENIR SHRAPNEL".

It would seem that while there MAY have been authentic such displays of such materials in those times.....obviously as with all manner of militaria and these kinds of items, one must be aware of the constant presence of modern creations of same.

There is no harm in optimism in observing items shown, however all possibilities must be considered equally. Discussing an item toward its inherent historical potential whether authentic or not is not necessarily the concern of the discussion, for some of us it is the history being represented that is important.
To each his own, and for collectors, as always.....caveat emptor.

[kronckew]

Was enthralled by Errol Flynn's Charge of the Light Brigade, and the movies about the Wooden Ships and Iron men of the age of sail and their weapons, as well as the famous 'last stands' from Leonidas at Thermopylae onwards.

Wastched a movie a few days ago about 21 Sikh warriors in the British army making a last stand in a outpost fort in afghanistan against 10,000 pathans for days, to allow the Brits time to come up the Khyber with reinforcements for the main Skh regiment. They died to a man, but took hundreds of the enemy with them before running out of ammo, and then took quite a few before the died with cold steel.

Grapeshot is fairly large, was arranged around a central wooden rod set in a wooden base sabot, and wrapped in a canvas cover. Cannister was also coming into fashion, with musket balls in a ton 'cannister'. all last ditch shots as you were about to be overrun. You had more chance not to be when breech loaders ballowed faster reloads before they swamped you. Colonel Shrapnel's invention with the bombs bursting in the air were deadly at longer ranges. cased shells with timed shrapnel warheads provides a blast of balls in a wide oval at very long ranges and were the age's cluster bombs. especially useful with the new rapid breech loading recoil damped pieces from the end of the 19c. I seem to recall cannister was used by US & Allied forces in the pacific WW2, Korea, and also in Vietnam.

below are a batch of grape charges for a 9-pounder naval gun, cased cannister, and a cutaway of a shrapnel round shot, and a modern ogival artillery round.

[David]

Originally Posted by Via Dixiane

When it come to journalists, due to my experience in former Yugoslavia i know that they like to show things according a certain "angle".

Hi folks. Photojournalist here. I have also spend years teaching on the subject in college level programs. So please allow my (hopefully) informed perspective.
Firstly i must hotly debate that journalists "like to show things according a certain "angle"". We "like" nothing of the kind. I would never argue that journalists do not from time to time get caught cheating. People are people and some just don't think the rules apply to them in any field. But it is the aim and goal of the profession on a whole to present straightforward and unadulterated news always. The fact that journalists are summarily dismissed when they are caught misrepresenting their images should be evidence of that.
This said, the ethics of journalism developed and evolved over a long period of time. What was considered allowable in the 19th century was not necessarily the same as the early 20th. By the time of the great days of publications like Life magazine stronger ethics were employed. By the end of the 20th century they were even more strict. Then digital photography came along and the game changed again.
So when we look at Roger Fenton's work we need to understand it's place in the history of photojournalism as the very first extensive photographic coverage of war to be published in newspapers. We also need to consider the equipment used. Large format view cameras with glass plates using a collodion wet plate process. This required that the emulsion placed on the plates be done in the field and that the images be processed immediately after, meaning that besides the large camera, tripod and numerous glass plates he also travelled with a light-tight wagon filled with chemistry. These plates required vey long exposure times of up to a minute so capturing action was out of the question.
I have little doubt the Fenton set up the cannon balls in his "Valley of Death" image (which btw, was not taken in the same location as the classic charge of the Light Brigade despite its name). He began his career as a painter so was quite used to adding or subtracting content from his images at will and back then there really were no rules about what was acceptable to do in the field of journalism. It is therefore very likely that Fenton, who was already hampered by his equipment and process from producing engaging images that illustrated the war, felt that more cannon balls in the frame would indeed help convey the horrors of the battlefield better.
This kind of questionable ethic continued into the Civil War. Some may be aware of the now infamous image by Alexander Gardner known as "Sharpshooter in the Devil's Den". In this image Gardner actually dragged the body into place and placed the rifle at a prominent angle for the final image. Times were different then.
But again, to be clear, none of these practices are acceptable in the today's world of journalism. When they do happen they are the exception and they are quickly called out by the journalistic community and those photographer's careers are generally left in ruins, dependent, of course, on the severity of the offense.

[Jim McDougall]

Im with Wayne, in post #33, the 'swiss cheese' lamppost, that is incredible shot grouping!
As a complete novice in artillery dynamics and photography (especially) I am really curious and would ask the experts here in those fields.
What kind of 'shot' would have the velocity to pierce through what I assume are metal lampposts (though they were probably hollow and formed) in such a clean penetration?
In such a group of almost strategically placed shots, how this post did not collapse is amazing.

Also amazing is that they must have been aiming at the post and not firing in any sort of barrage as there does not appear to be collateral damage in the architecture behind the crowd.

Could such a photo be 'photoshopped' or whatever they in the manner of the innovative things done by renegade photo 'creators' in tabloids etc. these days? I know there were some weird things done with WWI aviation scenes and of course the Conan Doyle hyperbole on 'fairies' etc. ….but could this have been 'created' similarly...….or do we believe it is authentically represented of actual damage?

[fernando]

Great input, David.
In this subject of photo setup scenes, i will force a comparison between placing elements on the ground in a manner to obtain a shocking image and have someone to put up a striking number for a photo, with equivalent intentions. The only difference is that, in the first case you are composing a scene that, although plausible, never took place, while in the other, a similar scene could (could) in fact have happened, only that the photographer hasn't caught it life. In both cases, the journal editor is waiting for something to thrill readers.
Technically both are forgeries, no matter their relative caliber.
If i may repeat myself (per post #9), i was in the presence of that American photojournalist when he asked the youngster (student?) to break the kiosk window, for a photo in a famous (guess which) magazine.
… And mind you, this took place in 1968 = mid XX century.

[fernando]

Watch the "unreal" result of solid shot volleys in this public lamp, after Portuguese regime forces were defeated by the rioters that ended the Monarchy, 5th October 1910.


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[kronckew]

Originally Posted by fernando

Watch the "unreal" result of solid shot volleys in this public lamp, after Portuguese regime forces were defeated by the rioters that ended the Monarchy, 5th October 1910.


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Impressive grouping on a narrow target. I'm surprised it didn't break & collapse.

Is that a selfie stick in the lower left just above the staring guy left of the post?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kronckew

Impressive grouping on a narrow target. I'm surprised it didn't break & collapse.

Is that a selfie stick in the lower left just above the staring guy left of the post?

That i wouldn't know; what i've heard of is that this very dude is anxious waiting for the post to fall ... so that he can escape from it in due time .