On the Flyssa

Kubur · 9th June 2019, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motan

Hi,
I want to offer a different interpretation for the Napoli dagger, though I admit it is both a long shot and disappointing.
To me, this looks like a fantasy piece because it is supposedly made in Naples, but clearly made in the Greek/Ottoman 19th c style. If you look at the date, as far as this picture allows close inspection, I see 1334, not 1774. My guess is that this is Hijri date corresponding to 1915/1916. I have no idea why: an orientalist interpretation for rarities cabinet? a dagger made for a Muslim merchant in his favorite style? All pure guesses. But the blade of this dagger does not look functional and the Greek connection is clear.

Hi Motan,

You are absolutely right on two points.
First the date presented is wrong and I can read too 1334.
Second the flyssa blade similarity is also incorrect and it's more a yataghanish type blade.
Then I was wrong to propose an Algerian origin (now there is no clear evidence for this).
I'm not convinced by a Greek origin either. Let's say Balkans or Turkish.
I don't think that it was a fantasy piece, I prefer to say a very late Ottoman piece or an early tourist piece in the Ottoman style. These pieces have been discussed in previous posts... Please note that early tourist pieces use generally Gregorian calendar and this one is using hijri (with latin numbers like the 1920ties Moroccan pieces)...
...

Kubur

motan · 9th June 2019, 04:49 PM

Hi Kubur,
Yes, I can agree with that. West-Ottoman, Balkan (Northern Greece is Balkan) may be more precise. Those deep engravings of plant motifs in silver can be either, as well as the small, Yataghan-like ears on the pommel. The only reason I decided to call it Greek was the way the inscription is framed, which is common in late Cretan and Greek daggers. The designation fantasy is a bit harsh and I agree with your description.
Unfortunately, this kind of late piece can not contribute to solving the mystery of the Flyssa and its origin.
As for the use of the Flyssa, I believe that tradition, ethnic identity and symbolism were more important that function in shaping ethnographic weapons. But if you had to use one, then stabbing looks like the only reasonable option. These are heavy weapons with a long and narrow point, so any slashing or cutting movements would be very impractical.

Jim McDougall · 9th June 2019, 07:32 PM

Guys, these are absolutely brilliant observations!! and I honestly did not see that date, nor apparently did Boccia & Coelho in their entry in "Armi Bianche Italiene" (or perhaps they did but I assumed, as my Italian is 'nada').

I had presumed this might be a viable clue as to flyssa development, but clearly (oops!).

Kubur, I don't think your Algerian suggestion was misplaced, and was reasonably deduced, but the Ottoman denominator can be safely applied broadly and to include the Balkan regions. I also disagree with this being a tourist item as per your notes on the Hijra date (1334=1915). The idea of some commemorative date on an authentically fashioned dagger seems most likely, and as well observed, has nothing to do with flyssa development.

Thank you both for the well explained and appropriately placed correction, well done and much appreciated.

Jim

ariel · 10th June 2019, 12:31 AM

If we are sill talking about a flissa dagger marked “Napoli”, there is no need to postulate Ottoman or Greek roots.
There was an old Neapolitan cutler dynasty named Labruna. In the mid- 19 century Giuseppe Labruna produced high end regulation swords for the military, but his forte was Ottoman weapons. He even made yataghans for Austro-Hungarian Croat Pandours. Thus, a flissa would not be a surprise. My bet is that if this flissa dagger could be carefully examined, there might be even his stamp. His descendants continued into the 20 century, but this is too new for me and I do not know the details about them.

Kubur · 10th June 2019, 09:13 AM

Thank you Jim, you're a wise man and a gentleman as always!

Ariel I think you nailed it. Just for comparison the French Bichaqs made by Manceaux, Paris sold by Oriental arms...

Best,
Kubur

Jim McDougall · 11th June 2019, 10:04 PM

Thank you very much Kubur!

You and Ariel have pointed out a key phenomenon of late 18th early 19th c. the production of Ottoman style arms for officers of elite cavalry units in Europe who favored flamboyant 'oriental' fashion and weaponry.
The Austro-Croat Pandours were a prime example and this explains the occurrence of these European marks etc. on what might otherwise seem Ottoman or even Asian.

motan · 21st June 2019, 11:30 AM

Hello,
I saw this dagger that was auctioned yesterday, but I didn't buy it. I am adding it to the thread because this is clearly a Flyssa/Bichak (not Yatagan) hybrid.
My best guess is that it was made in Algeria in Bichak form for some reason, though it is clearly a Flyssa.
Jim, I am not claiming that this has to do with the origin of the Flyssa - it does not look even nearly old enough. I just want to suggest that Ottoman and North African styles were connected. It makes sens if you think of the history of these places and the maritime traffic between them, but here is an actual piece that shows it.

10th June 2019, 09:13 AM	#5
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Thank you Jim, you're a wise man and a gentleman as always! Ariel I think you nailed it. Just for comparison the French Bichaqs made by Manceaux, Paris sold by Oriental arms... Best, Kubur Attached Images

21st June 2019, 11:30 AM	#7
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hello, I saw this dagger that was auctioned yesterday, but I didn't buy it. I am adding it to the thread because this is clearly a Flyssa/Bichak (not Yatagan) hybrid. My best guess is that it was made in Algeria in Bichak form for some reason, though it is clearly a Flyssa. Jim, I am not claiming that this has to do with the origin of the Flyssa - it does not look even nearly old enough. I just want to suggest that Ottoman and North African styles were connected. It makes sens if you think of the history of these places and the maritime traffic between them, but here is an actual piece that shows it. Attached Images

9th June 2019, 04:49 PM	#2
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi Kubur, Yes, I can agree with that. West-Ottoman, Balkan (Northern Greece is Balkan) may be more precise. Those deep engravings of plant motifs in silver can be either, as well as the small, Yataghan-like ears on the pommel. The only reason I decided to call it Greek was the way the inscription is framed, which is common in late Cretan and Greek daggers. The designation fantasy is a bit harsh and I agree with your description. Unfortunately, this kind of late piece can not contribute to solving the mystery of the Flyssa and its origin. As for the use of the Flyssa, I believe that tradition, ethnic identity and symbolism were more important that function in shaping ethnographic weapons. But if you had to use one, then stabbing looks like the only reasonable option. These are heavy weapons with a long and narrow point, so any slashing or cutting movements would be very impractical.

9th June 2019, 07:32 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Guys, these are absolutely brilliant observations!! and I honestly did not see that date, nor apparently did Boccia & Coelho in their entry in "Armi Bianche Italiene" (or perhaps they did but I assumed, as my Italian is 'nada'). I had presumed this might be a viable clue as to flyssa development, but clearly (oops!). Kubur, I don't think your Algerian suggestion was misplaced, and was reasonably deduced, but the Ottoman denominator can be safely applied broadly and to include the Balkan regions. I also disagree with this being a tourist item as per your notes on the Hijra date (1334=1915). The idea of some commemorative date on an authentically fashioned dagger seems most likely, and as well observed, has nothing to do with flyssa development. Thank you both for the well explained and appropriately placed correction, well done and much appreciated. Jim

10th June 2019, 12:31 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	If we are sill talking about a flissa dagger marked “Napoli”, there is no need to postulate Ottoman or Greek roots. There was an old Neapolitan cutler dynasty named Labruna. In the mid- 19 century Giuseppe Labruna produced high end regulation swords for the military, but his forte was Ottoman weapons. He even made yataghans for Austro-Hungarian Croat Pandours. Thus, a flissa would not be a surprise. My bet is that if this flissa dagger could be carefully examined, there might be even his stamp. His descendants continued into the 20 century, but this is too new for me and I do not know the details about them.

11th June 2019, 10:04 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Thank you very much Kubur! You and Ariel have pointed out a key phenomenon of late 18th early 19th c. the production of Ottoman style arms for officers of elite cavalry units in Europe who favored flamboyant 'oriental' fashion and weaponry. The Austro-Croat Pandours were a prime example and this explains the occurrence of these European marks etc. on what might otherwise seem Ottoman or even Asian.