A katar is a katar till......

Nihl · 8th June 2019, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercenary

The pata-sword and patta-leaf have different spelling and pronunciation in Hindi...
In any way they are different words with different meanings.

Well, yes, this is inherent in having two different words that mean two different things. Obviously pata-leafs and pata-swords are not interchangeable words, but that doesn't mean that one can't originate from the other.

Further supporting the whole patta/leaf thing, just look at the sosun patta, whose name literally translates to lily leaf, a reflection of the shape of the blade. The pata, it would seem, is the same way. A pata blade looks like a patta leaf, so the weapon came to be called a pata. The oldest phonetic spelling of the word, as per the 1860 Tanjore inventory (shown in Elgood Hindu A&R), is "puttah", which is way closer to "patta", clearly showing the transition between the two - or at least that's my take on it

.

Either way, at least with the sosun patta, it's clear that swords could be given leaf-based names. All I'm arguing is that it's the same with the pattani jamdadu, which shows, in turn, that names can be "customizable" i.e. changed based on the characteristics of the blade/form or the weapon.
Pattani = pata/patta, a long straight blade
Jamdadu = a punch dagger (katar)
Pattani Jamdadu = a punch dagger with a long straight blade

Attached is a silly collage of definitions from Elgood, with the relevant bits highlighted. From Hindu Arms & Ritual and Rajput Arms & Armour, Vol II.

Also, to Jim, I totally agree with your assessment (of my assessment lol), but don't have anything to add at the moment.

Mercenary · 9th June 2019, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nihl

Well, yes, this is inherent in having two different words that mean two different things. Obviously pata-leafs and pata-swords are not interchangeable words, but that doesn't mean that one can't originate from the other.

Further supporting the whole patta/leaf thing, just look at the sosun patta, whose name literally translates to lily leaf, a reflection of the shape of the blade. The pata, it would seem, is the same way. A pata blade looks like a patta leaf, so the weapon came to be called a pata. The oldest phonetic spelling of the word, as per the 1860 Tanjore inventory (shown in Elgood Hindu A&R), is "puttah", which is way closer to "patta", clearly showing the transition between the two - or at least that's my take on it

.

Either way, at least with the sosun patta, it's clear that swords could be given leaf-based names. All I'm arguing is that it's the same with the pattani jamdadu, which shows, in turn, that names can be "customizable" i.e. changed based on the characteristics of the blade/form or the weapon.
Pattani = pata/patta, a long straight blade
Jamdadu = a punch dagger (katar)
Pattani Jamdadu = a punch dagger with a long straight blade

Attached is a silly collage of definitions from Elgood, with the relevant bits highlighted. From Hindu Arms & Ritual and Rajput Arms & Armour, Vol II.

It is need to use Elgood's glossary very carefully. And descriptions of items too.

Sauasan. Arabic. Sword-leaf-forest. Very good stories for gentlemen in pith helmets

I met term "sosan" used for such a kind of sword but only in the second half of the 19th. Not early.

I still think (this is just my guess for now) that "lily leaf" it was rather very good a name for ONE famous sword of ONE famous person. The name which was once called in the presence of gentleman.

Sosan-patta sword it is very interesting theme for research and no one has done this yet. Theme for research but not for superficial reflections or definition. Not everything that can be written on forums should be published in books.

Mercenary · 9th June 2019, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nihl

Well, yes, this is inherent in having two different words that mean two different things. Obviously pata-leafs and pata-swords are not interchangeable words, but that doesn't mean that one can't originate from the other.

One never could be originated from the other.
It is in English "pata" and "patta" sound the same. Because in English there are only one character (and sound) "t". These words have different characters, sounds and the roots of the word: patta-leaf has root "flat", pata-sword has root related to "to strike".

ariel · 9th June 2019, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercenary

... in English there are only one character (and sound) "t".

Not a good example: “ t” is pronounced differently in tank, mother, matter, notion , theater ( two different sounds), thistle ( one is altogether silent), thus, city, natural, not pronounced at all, and then there are other blasted exceptions:-)

G.B. Shaw quipped that the word “fish” should be written “ghoti”: gh as in “enough”, o as in “women” and sh as in “mention”.

I strongly suspect that multiple languages of India have their peculiar phonetic differences, rules and exceptions.

Mercenary · 9th June 2019, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Not a good example: “ t” is pronounced differently in tank, mother, matter, notion , theater ( two different sounds), thistle ( one is altogether silent), thus, city, natural, not pronounced at all, and then there are other blasted exceptions:-).

Thanks a lot. As I can see it is impossible to originate word "matter" from "mother". That's the point.

Jim McDougall · 9th June 2019, 05:09 PM

Nihl, , Im very glad we agree on my assessment of your assessment

and to the rest of this discourse, I always find these linguistic and transliterations romps entertaining and often interesting.

However I disagree with your use of the word 'silly' in describing any reference by Robert Elgood.
I would acknowledge that perhaps, as with any published author, material could be scrutinized for its content, however I have never known an author who has researched and painstakingly assembled the huge corpus of important data on the subjects he has chosen with the determination he has. He has done so not as a money making venture, but because he has a sincere passion for the study of the arms topics he has chosen.

He has done so by spending much, if not most, of his life 'in the field' to accomplish this research, and all the while working to navigate the treacherous waters of the 'name game' which is the bane of serious arms researchers. ….he has given us the books which have become our guides .
It takes great courage and stamina to accomplish these quests, and as with everything in study, I would regard his work with every measure of respect. Most authors will acknowledge there may be flaws or outright errors in their work, and rather expect and appreciate correction, but deserve respect for all else which recognizes the sound achievements they have presented to us.

I admire the knowledge and linguistic skills of the wordsmiths here, and learn a lot from the entries, but I think in critique, better words could be chosen accordingly.

Having said that, thank you again along with Mercenary for the interesting and detailed entries pertaining to these terms, and I very much agree that the 'sosun pattah' (or whatever it is properly termed) would be a form deserving more thorough investigation. I always welcome the results of group interaction in useful discussions as we have often had here, and agree that such material is not necessarily publishable as is, but certainly gives the content that leads to publication.
To publish takes some pretty 'thick skin', but as I was once told by a very well known author, "...Jim, ignore the critics, most of them have never published anything , just write and as best as you can, tell the people what they need to know".

ariel · 9th June 2019, 05:42 PM

Elgood did his best trying to transcribe words of one language into another. This is a difficult and thankless task that is opening the “transcriber” to criticisms . I have no idea how the Indian words sound and what would be the best phonetic rendition of Sosun? Sausun? Sauason? Sossun? On top of that the sound should conform to high-class British English. To his advantage he was doing it while staying in India, surrounded by native speakers and professional linguists.

So, guys, perhaps Jim ‘s comments have a grain of truth, and your sniping criticisms reflect not so much phonetic shortcomings of Elgood’s work, but your limited knowledge of languages? Nothing offensive, that can happen to anyone.

Matter ( as substance) and mother come from the same Sanskrit root “ma”,
And BTW, it was Carl Jung ( who by all accounts was not a dummy) who said that the root matter is the mother of all things.

As to the apparent impropriety of using “leaves” in describing “blades”, please recall that leaves of grass are called blades in English, and Walt Whitman is my witness:-)

Jim McDougall · 10th June 2019, 07:11 PM

As Nihl has noted in previous post, the curious 'Garsoe ' katar/jamadhar which appears in Egerton (p.138, fig. 727) image attached, defies any definition as to 'why' it has been given this term, or for that matter, why its sidebars are scrolled or undulating.

As I previously mentioned, Jens has an incredible knowledge of the katar, pretty much unparalleled, and if he has not found an answer, it is so deeply hidden that possible no accurate solution may be discovered.

We know that seemingly, Egerton made the first reference to this form of jamadhar/katar and decribes it as with 'curved side bars' (plate XIV, #727) as a 'garsoee katar'. ...and from Bhuj, Kach.

These regions are in Ghujerat, with Bhuj a major city and Kach (Cutch) also a key province. Sind (now in Pakistan) is situated north of Gujerat and separated from Gujerat by the huge salt marsh known as the Rann of Cutch.

It does seem that these regions have given us another distinct weapon, commonly called elephant sword (for the fixture on the hilt using that figure) but often termed a 'bhuj'. This is a hafted dagger often seen used by Sindhi horsemen(picture attached).

It would seem that this curious curved bar katar was perhaps named for the place from which it is known(or tribe?) given the propensity to term a weapon in that manner (i.e. bhuj).

Whatever the case, the Egerton(1880) term (again) stood and was perpetuated by other writers. This carried to the great conundrum which was discovered by Jens in research he was doing on this about 15 years ago (seen in posts by him in 2006).
In "Contribution a l'Etude des Armes Orientales" ( Holstein, Paris, 1931, vol. I, plate XIII, #19) a curious extremely simple transverse grip dagger is illustrated...….it is attributed as 'GARSOE KATAR' from Bhoudj, Catch, and from the Henri Moser collection in Musee d' Berne.

However the curator of that museum insisted that no such dagger in the collection (now in storage)existed. It does seem that in Holstein another dagger with the curved bars was shown in the plate. Obviously this must have been a captioning error (?).
While not offering a solution to our dilemma, it seems clear that even by 1931, nobody knew what 'garsoe' meant.

Pant (1980) shows a Garsoe in fig. 489, but reference on p.173 simply refers to the illustration, saying it has already been described.

The images:
1) the Holstein (1931) image of a 'katar' described (apparently wrongly) as garsoe katar, #19, plate XIII
2) 1827 map of Sind and Catch (Kutch) in Gujerat, the water area (in appearance in the huge Rann of Kutch salt marsh (seasonal).
3) Sindhi cavalier wielding bhuj knife (from Haider)
4) the Egerton (1880) entry for garsoee katar (#727,)

Mercenary · 9th June 2019, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Nihl, ....
However I disagree with your use of the word 'silly' in describing any reference by Robert Elgood.

This was said only about the collage itself, not related to anyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

To publish takes some pretty 'thick skin', but as I was once told by a very well known author, "...Jim, ignore the critics, most of them have never published anything , just write and as best as you can, tell the people what they need to know".

Well said. I will copy it if you allow.

Jim McDougall · 9th June 2019, 06:06 PM

Thank you guys,
Mercenary, my comment suggested that 'any' reference by Robert Elgood, should not be described (however it is deemed by the reader) openly as 'silly'. I am clearly no linguist, but if I must criticize, I try to do so respectfully.
Normally I would not have rebutted such a statement, and I did mean it respectfully, and hope my view is accepted in kind.

Of course you may copy my 'quote', which is not attributed to its true author and paraphrased by me...it has stayed with me with more years than I recall, but I will never forget being told this.

With this I hope my reaction to this element of otherwise well explained and discussed material is not taken the wrong way, but Robert Elgood is a highly respected author, and deserves rebuttal entered along side any critique publicly. I meant no negative impression toward anyone in doing so, so I hope my 'critique' is accepted accordingly.

9th June 2019, 05:09 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Nihl, , Im very glad we agree on my assessment of your assessment and to the rest of this discourse, I always find these linguistic and transliterations romps entertaining and often interesting. However I disagree with your use of the word 'silly' in describing any reference by Robert Elgood. I would acknowledge that perhaps, as with any published author, material could be scrutinized for its content, however I have never known an author who has researched and painstakingly assembled the huge corpus of important data on the subjects he has chosen with the determination he has. He has done so not as a money making venture, but because he has a sincere passion for the study of the arms topics he has chosen. He has done so by spending much, if not most, of his life 'in the field' to accomplish this research, and all the while working to navigate the treacherous waters of the 'name game' which is the bane of serious arms researchers. ….he has given us the books which have become our guides . It takes great courage and stamina to accomplish these quests, and as with everything in study, I would regard his work with every measure of respect. Most authors will acknowledge there may be flaws or outright errors in their work, and rather expect and appreciate correction, but deserve respect for all else which recognizes the sound achievements they have presented to us. I admire the knowledge and linguistic skills of the wordsmiths here, and learn a lot from the entries, but I think in critique, better words could be chosen accordingly. Having said that, thank you again along with Mercenary for the interesting and detailed entries pertaining to these terms, and I very much agree that the 'sosun pattah' (or whatever it is properly termed) would be a form deserving more thorough investigation. I always welcome the results of group interaction in useful discussions as we have often had here, and agree that such material is not necessarily publishable as is, but certainly gives the content that leads to publication. To publish takes some pretty 'thick skin', but as I was once told by a very well known author, "...Jim, ignore the critics, most of them have never published anything , just write and as best as you can, tell the people what they need to know". Last edited by Jim McDougall; 9th June 2019 at 05:40 PM.

10th June 2019, 07:11 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	The Great 'Garsoe jamadhar' mystery As Nihl has noted in previous post, the curious 'Garsoe ' katar/jamadhar which appears in Egerton (p.138, fig. 727) image attached, defies any definition as to 'why' it has been given this term, or for that matter, why its sidebars are scrolled or undulating. As I previously mentioned, Jens has an incredible knowledge of the katar, pretty much unparalleled, and if he has not found an answer, it is so deeply hidden that possible no accurate solution may be discovered. We know that seemingly, Egerton made the first reference to this form of jamadhar/katar and decribes it as with 'curved side bars' (plate XIV, #727) as a 'garsoee katar'. ...and from Bhuj, Kach. These regions are in Ghujerat, with Bhuj a major city and Kach (Cutch) also a key province. Sind (now in Pakistan) is situated north of Gujerat and separated from Gujerat by the huge salt marsh known as the Rann of Cutch. It does seem that these regions have given us another distinct weapon, commonly called elephant sword (for the fixture on the hilt using that figure) but often termed a 'bhuj'. This is a hafted dagger often seen used by Sindhi horsemen(picture attached). It would seem that this curious curved bar katar was perhaps named for the place from which it is known(or tribe?) given the propensity to term a weapon in that manner (i.e. bhuj). Whatever the case, the Egerton(1880) term (again) stood and was perpetuated by other writers. This carried to the great conundrum which was discovered by Jens in research he was doing on this about 15 years ago (seen in posts by him in 2006). In "Contribution a l'Etude des Armes Orientales" ( Holstein, Paris, 1931, vol. I, plate XIII, #19) a curious extremely simple transverse grip dagger is illustrated...….it is attributed as 'GARSOE KATAR' from Bhoudj, Catch, and from the Henri Moser collection in Musee d' Berne. However the curator of that museum insisted that no such dagger in the collection (now in storage)existed. It does seem that in Holstein another dagger with the curved bars was shown in the plate. Obviously this must have been a captioning error (?). While not offering a solution to our dilemma, it seems clear that even by 1931, nobody knew what 'garsoe' meant. Pant (1980) shows a Garsoe in fig. 489, but reference on p.173 simply refers to the illustration, saying it has already been described. The images: 1) the Holstein (1931) image of a 'katar' described (apparently wrongly) as garsoe katar, #19, plate XIII 2) 1827 map of Sind and Catch (Kutch) in Gujerat, the water area (in appearance in the huge Rann of Kutch salt marsh (seasonal). 3) Sindhi cavalier wielding bhuj knife (from Haider) 4) the Egerton (1880) entry for garsoee katar (#727,) Attached Images

9th June 2019, 05:42 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Elgood did his best trying to transcribe words of one language into another. This is a difficult and thankless task that is opening the “transcriber” to criticisms . I have no idea how the Indian words sound and what would be the best phonetic rendition of Sosun? Sausun? Sauason? Sossun? On top of that the sound should conform to high-class British English. To his advantage he was doing it while staying in India, surrounded by native speakers and professional linguists. So, guys, perhaps Jim ‘s comments have a grain of truth, and your sniping criticisms reflect not so much phonetic shortcomings of Elgood’s work, but your limited knowledge of languages? Nothing offensive, that can happen to anyone. Matter ( as substance) and mother come from the same Sanskrit root “ma”, And BTW, it was Carl Jung ( who by all accounts was not a dummy) who said that the root matter is the mother of all things. As to the apparent impropriety of using “leaves” in describing “blades”, please recall that leaves of grass are called blades in English, and Walt Whitman is my witness:-) Last edited by ariel; 9th June 2019 at 06:26 PM.

9th June 2019, 06:06 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Thank you guys, Mercenary, my comment suggested that 'any' reference by Robert Elgood, should not be described (however it is deemed by the reader) openly as 'silly'. I am clearly no linguist, but if I must criticize, I try to do so respectfully. Normally I would not have rebutted such a statement, and I did mean it respectfully, and hope my view is accepted in kind. Of course you may copy my 'quote', which is not attributed to its true author and paraphrased by me...it has stayed with me with more years than I recall, but I will never forget being told this. With this I hope my reaction to this element of otherwise well explained and discussed material is not taken the wrong way, but Robert Elgood is a highly respected author, and deserves rebuttal entered along side any critique publicly. I meant no negative impression toward anyone in doing so, so I hope my 'critique' is accepted accordingly.