A katar is a katar till......

[Nihl]

In regards to how they were used, I think there is no doubt that conventional katars are well documented as being nasty punching (stabbing) weapons. I've thrust (punched) mine into some thick foam before, just for fun, and the "wound channel" that was generated was quite impressive. Just a theory, but curved katars might have been created to capitalize on soldiers that felt more comfortable using the standard style of swinging a weapon in India; keeping the wrist stiff and slashing at an opponent instead of punching/stabbing them. No doubt a curved katar - or even a straight katar - functions (cuts) just like a really small pata. A curved katar might = a better cutting weapon, but any difference in that regard clearly wasn't important enough to create a large amount of them. It's possible that being so out of place in regular society made them not important enough to be named. Though I don't doubt that if you asked an Indian to give a name for a curved katar back in the day they would have just respond with (x) jamdadu/jamdhar. This given the whole thing that the "pattani" of pattani jamdadu - a long straight katar - comes from the (old?) root word "patta", a word used to describe a long, straight blade of grass (I believe Elgood notes this in Hindu Arms&Ritual). I think one of us really just needs to learn Hindi and then we can come up with our own specialized terms for these katars .

Regarding the actually unusual styles of katar, this is rather puzzling. Personally, I think having a multi-pointed katar (not one with multiple blades, just points cut from a single blade) is actually somewhat viable. Of course the points spread out the force, but assuming one can punch well with a regular katar, the force generated should still be sufficient enough to embed all the points into a target. To get a bit graphic, in regards to getting stuck on things (bone), a regular punch to the chest with a katar would maybe punch through bone, but more likely than not be redirected between the ribs. Depending on the angle and force applied, the widening of the blade could also push apart/cut into/crack nearby ribs, causing further damage. In regards to a katar with multiple points, just imagine the aforementioned, but the blade is wider, and (with a heavy maybe on this one) might be a bit more massive so as to do more percussive/bone-messing-up damage. I suppose realistically, my "thesis" here is just that more points should equal a more graphic, gory wound.

Multiple blades should, in theory, work the same, but with them all being so thin I can see them also being relatively easily damaged.

As a side note on the bifurcated Rajput-style katar (an example being one in Jens' catalouge, pg 134-135), I could see this one as either being an early tourist attraction kind of invention, or, again, a valid type (the construction of the blade - which splits into two only after the forte - seems relatively solid) that could create a more violent wound if used correctly.

"Scissor katars", IMO, are a total joke. Regardless of parrying possibilities, they seem to be so flimsily constructed that it seems to me a hit anywhere on the weapon would disable it's silly "amazing expanding blade action!" It also seems to me that if you want to ever actually use (punch with) a katar, you have to first squeeze the crossbars to adequately hold onto the thing, meaning the blades would always be open; ready to dent, chip, or break off as soon they get hit with an actual weapon.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Nihl

Though I don't doubt that if you asked an Indian to give a name for a curved katar back in the day they would have just respond with (x) jamdadu/jamdhar.

Very well again. Thanks.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Nihl

This given the whole thing that the "pattani" of pattani jamdadu - a long straight katar - comes from the (old?) root word "patta", a word used to describe a long, straight blade of grass (I believe Elgood notes this in Hindu Arms&Ritual). I think one of us really just needs to learn Hindi and then we can come up with our own specialized terms for these katars

The pata-sword and patta-leaf have different spelling and pronunciation in Hindi, but the same spelling in Persian transcription for Urdu. In any way they are different words with different meanings.

[Nihl]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

The pata-sword and patta-leaf have different spelling and pronunciation in Hindi...
In any way they are different words with different meanings.

Well, yes, this is inherent in having two different words that mean two different things. Obviously pata-leafs and pata-swords are not interchangeable words, but that doesn't mean that one can't originate from the other.

Further supporting the whole patta/leaf thing, just look at the sosun patta, whose name literally translates to lily leaf, a reflection of the shape of the blade. The pata, it would seem, is the same way. A pata blade looks like a patta leaf, so the weapon came to be called a pata. The oldest phonetic spelling of the word, as per the 1860 Tanjore inventory (shown in Elgood Hindu A&R), is "puttah", which is way closer to "patta", clearly showing the transition between the two - or at least that's my take on it .

Either way, at least with the sosun patta, it's clear that swords could be given leaf-based names. All I'm arguing is that it's the same with the pattani jamdadu, which shows, in turn, that names can be "customizable" i.e. changed based on the characteristics of the blade/form or the weapon.
Pattani = pata/patta, a long straight blade
Jamdadu = a punch dagger (katar)
Pattani Jamdadu = a punch dagger with a long straight blade

Attached is a silly collage of definitions from Elgood, with the relevant bits highlighted. From Hindu Arms & Ritual and Rajput Arms & Armour, Vol II.

Also, to Jim, I totally agree with your assessment (of my assessment lol), but don't have anything to add at the moment.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Nihl

Well, yes, this is inherent in having two different words that mean two different things. Obviously pata-leafs and pata-swords are not interchangeable words, but that doesn't mean that one can't originate from the other.

Further supporting the whole patta/leaf thing, just look at the sosun patta, whose name literally translates to lily leaf, a reflection of the shape of the blade. The pata, it would seem, is the same way. A pata blade looks like a patta leaf, so the weapon came to be called a pata. The oldest phonetic spelling of the word, as per the 1860 Tanjore inventory (shown in Elgood Hindu A&R), is "puttah", which is way closer to "patta", clearly showing the transition between the two - or at least that's my take on it .

Either way, at least with the sosun patta, it's clear that swords could be given leaf-based names. All I'm arguing is that it's the same with the pattani jamdadu, which shows, in turn, that names can be "customizable" i.e. changed based on the characteristics of the blade/form or the weapon.
Pattani = pata/patta, a long straight blade
Jamdadu = a punch dagger (katar)
Pattani Jamdadu = a punch dagger with a long straight blade

Attached is a silly collage of definitions from Elgood, with the relevant bits highlighted. From Hindu Arms & Ritual and Rajput Arms & Armour, Vol II.

It is need to use Elgood's glossary very carefully. And descriptions of items too.

Sauasan. Arabic. Sword-leaf-forest. Very good stories for gentlemen in pith helmets

I met term "sosan" used for such a kind of sword but only in the second half of the 19th. Not early.

I still think (this is just my guess for now) that "lily leaf" it was rather very good a name for ONE famous sword of ONE famous person. The name which was once called in the presence of gentleman.

Sosan-patta sword it is very interesting theme for research and no one has done this yet. Theme for research but not for superficial reflections or definition. Not everything that can be written on forums should be published in books.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Nihl

Well, yes, this is inherent in having two different words that mean two different things. Obviously pata-leafs and pata-swords are not interchangeable words, but that doesn't mean that one can't originate from the other.

One never could be originated from the other.
It is in English "pata" and "patta" sound the same. Because in English there are only one character (and sound) "t". These words have different characters, sounds and the roots of the word: patta-leaf has root "flat", pata-sword has root related to "to strike".

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

... in English there are only one character (and sound) "t".

Not a good example: “ t” is pronounced differently in tank, mother, matter, notion , theater ( two different sounds), thistle ( one is altogether silent), thus, city, natural, not pronounced at all, and then there are other blasted exceptions:-)

G.B. Shaw quipped that the word “fish” should be written “ghoti”: gh as in “enough”, o as in “women” and sh as in “mention”.

I strongly suspect that multiple languages of India have their peculiar phonetic differences, rules and exceptions.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by ariel

Not a good example: “ t” is pronounced differently in tank, mother, matter, notion , theater ( two different sounds), thistle ( one is altogether silent), thus, city, natural, not pronounced at all, and then there are other blasted exceptions:-).

Thanks a lot. As I can see it is impossible to originate word "matter" from "mother". That's the point.

[Jim McDougall]

Nihl, , Im very glad we agree on my assessment of your assessment and to the rest of this discourse, I always find these linguistic and transliterations romps entertaining and often interesting.

However I disagree with your use of the word 'silly' in describing any reference by Robert Elgood.
I would acknowledge that perhaps, as with any published author, material could be scrutinized for its content, however I have never known an author who has researched and painstakingly assembled the huge corpus of important data on the subjects he has chosen with the determination he has. He has done so not as a money making venture, but because he has a sincere passion for the study of the arms topics he has chosen.

He has done so by spending much, if not most, of his life 'in the field' to accomplish this research, and all the while working to navigate the treacherous waters of the 'name game' which is the bane of serious arms researchers. ….he has given us the books which have become our guides .
It takes great courage and stamina to accomplish these quests, and as with everything in study, I would regard his work with every measure of respect. Most authors will acknowledge there may be flaws or outright errors in their work, and rather expect and appreciate correction, but deserve respect for all else which recognizes the sound achievements they have presented to us.

I admire the knowledge and linguistic skills of the wordsmiths here, and learn a lot from the entries, but I think in critique, better words could be chosen accordingly.

Having said that, thank you again along with Mercenary for the interesting and detailed entries pertaining to these terms, and I very much agree that the 'sosun pattah' (or whatever it is properly termed) would be a form deserving more thorough investigation. I always welcome the results of group interaction in useful discussions as we have often had here, and agree that such material is not necessarily publishable as is, but certainly gives the content that leads to publication.
To publish takes some pretty 'thick skin', but as I was once told by a very well known author, "...Jim, ignore the critics, most of them have never published anything , just write and as best as you can, tell the people what they need to know".

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Nihl

In regards to how they were used, I think there is no doubt that conventional katars are well documented as being nasty punching (stabbing) weapons. I've thrust (punched) mine into some thick foam before, just for fun, and the "wound channel" that was generated was quite impressive. Just a theory, but curved katars might have been created to capitalize on soldiers that felt more comfortable using the standard style of swinging a weapon in India; keeping the wrist stiff and slashing at an opponent instead of punching/stabbing them. No doubt a curved katar - or even a straight katar - functions (cuts) just like a really small pata. A curved katar might = a better cutting weapon, but any difference in that regard clearly wasn't important enough to create a large amount of them. It's possible that being so out of place in regular society made them not important enough to be named. Though I don't doubt that if you asked an Indian to give a name for a curved katar back in the day they would have just respond with (x) jamdadu/jamdhar. This given the whole thing that the "pattani" of pattani jamdadu - a long straight katar - comes from the (old?) root word "patta", a word used to describe a long, straight blade of grass (I believe Elgood notes this in Hindu Arms&Ritual). I think one of us really just needs to learn Hindi and then we can come up with our own specialized terms for these katars .

Regarding the actually unusual styles of katar, this is rather puzzling. Personally, I think having a multi-pointed katar (not one with multiple blades, just points cut from a single blade) is actually somewhat viable. Of course the points spread out the force, but assuming one can punch well with a regular katar, the force generated should still be sufficient enough to embed all the points into a target. To get a bit graphic, in regards to getting stuck on things (bone), a regular punch to the chest with a katar would maybe punch through bone, but more likely than not be redirected between the ribs. Depending on the angle and force applied, the widening of the blade could also push apart/cut into/crack nearby ribs, causing further damage. In regards to a katar with multiple points, just imagine the aforementioned, but the blade is wider, and (with a heavy maybe on this one) might be a bit more massive so as to do more percussive/bone-messing-up damage. I suppose realistically, my "thesis" here is just that more points should equal a more graphic, gory wound.

Multiple blades should, in theory, work the same, but with them all being so thin I can see them also being relatively easily damaged.

As a side note on the bifurcated Rajput-style katar (an example being one in Jens' catalouge, pg 134-135), I could see this one as either being an early tourist attraction kind of invention, or, again, a valid type (the construction of the blade - which splits into two only after the forte - seems relatively solid) that could create a more violent wound if used correctly.

"Scissor katars", IMO, are a total joke. Regardless of parrying possibilities, they seem to be so flimsily constructed that it seems to me a hit anywhere on the weapon would disable it's silly "amazing expanding blade action!" It also seems to me that if you want to ever actually use (punch with) a katar, you have to first squeeze the crossbars to adequately hold onto the thing, meaning the blades would always be open; ready to dent, chip, or break off as soon they get hit with an actual weapon.

Well observed Nihl, especially in the detailed and well explained martial aspects in the use of these weapons. While of course, perhaps viewed as 'grim' by some readers, I have seen many physiologically oriented reports and papers concerning the actual use of edged weapons. I think one of the most interesting was in a fencing journal which provided a dramatic perspective on the real nature of duels.

I agree that dual or multiple blades would of course be 'possible' to use as intended, but the skill and strength, not to mention proper dynamics, would be most limited.

In research on the use of notches, and serration on blades, I found that the idea of 'worsening' a wound seems an almost inviable an unnecessary aspect of weapon use. The most consistent focus on this kind of thing was probably the cut vs. thrust debate for cavalry swords in the 18th-19th c.

With notches and serrated edges it seems that the most notable result would typically be the weapon becoming lodged in the wound, and retraction being virtually impossible..much like the barbs in arrows etc. Thus the user becomes without weapon.
With the lance, typical use was to use stabbing with limited penetration rather than impalement for these reasons.

With the dual blade aspect on daggers, it is often held that this is of course toward the famed Dhul i'Faqar sword, but perhaps with that aspect being seen outside others outside the Muslim sphere culturally, the idea of 'if two, why not three, or more' blades may have been the case.
Indian armourers, always vying for patronage of royal and wealthy clients, often created many innovative designs and forms to impress.
These fall into the weapons 'curiosa' category which has given us the firearm and edged weapon combinations and many others.

As Mercenary has well noted, in many Eastern cultures, the dagger is very much a status oriented accoutrement which is worn faithful to tradition even into modern times. I think in many cases these kinds of unique or 'curiosa' weapons were more to 'impress' than as fodder for 'tourists'. These were often difficult to fashion and showed the skill of the armorer and the discerning novelty of the owner's character.

With regard to the terms again, these are simply situational and worthy of note in cross reference, footnote or any means to keep the dialogue well understood in discussion.