Maranao Datu? Kris

[Federico]

Elevation to Datu class would be through marriage, while one can rise to high status otherwise, Datu class is royalty class. Kinda the same idea, no matter how rich Trump gets, he is still not a royal unless he marries into it. Now it has happened that people of common origins have improved their blood lines through marriage, but to do this, one needs quite substantial bits of money. Now, I did not mention the potential for stealing items, because I would like to hope things arent this way in this situation, but I am afraid it is far too common. Particularly in the santo trade, an amazing amount of churches have been robbed to provide collectors markets in Manila. However, I would not like to cast such extreme allegations without specific proof.

As for pride in the past heritage going down, or trading for a new weapon, large sum of money, etc... It happens, all the time. However, again we are looking at what would be a very high class weapon. Ivory, and metal hilted pieces are not exactly commonplace. The amount of those in the Datu class who joined the MNLF, MILF, and other rebel groups has been very low. PI is a poor country, but not everyone in PI is so poor that they are willing to sell their lives at a whim. I am not trying to be overly harsh here, but realistically the number of truly legitimate high end pieces left in the PI after the glut of the Spanish American war is very very low. The high end pieces left, were those in the possessions of people who were not exactly low end ranking royalty, and who are very much concerned with preserving their cultural history. On a numbers level, the amount of people in the class to make such a change, remain very low. We are talking major calamities and great change of fortune here for things to change around. Also considering the age of the re-fit, it is very likely that the person who sold it, was alive when the refit was done, limiting the idea of the grandkid an the grandpas chest. Now on the flip side, the numbers of old commoner blades being re-habbed and then sold as royal weaponry, are quite high and have been a well documented process for many many years. There are fakes in every other sword market, many with high degrees of sophistication. So just because PI is a poor country, we are supposed to buy the idea that fakery wont occur? Are we supposed to buy, that only the guadiest tourist items are the only items being passed off as real? While here in the US because of the rampant nature of stripping dead bodies during the Phil-Am war, and the lower value the general populace has for these weapons, people of relatively humble backgrounds, such as I can afford to have a few pieces. However, in PI it is names like Zobel, Araneta, Alaya,etc... that collect these pieces. The prices that have been paid for plainer pieces in Manila markets for such collectors, has been extremely high. Now, are we to assume that there would not be someone out there who wouldnt want to put a little extra effort to tap into a few of these dollars beyond bringing out the guadiest of tourist kris of the type that one finds in shoemart? Is PI full of saints?

OK, I am not trying to say one cant collect what one wants, and that only 100% original is great. My own collection is all what many would consider junky pieces, that have been re-habbed numerous times. I can only think of a few pieces that are somewhat complete, and I dont think I have anything that is 100% original. I am trying to say exercise some caution this stuff happens, and sometimes when it sounds too good to be true, well... As before I am interested in hearing the story behind the sword. As I mentioned before, I am more inclined to be less paranoid if the dealer isnt trying to pass it off as 100% original, when we can all see it is not. But given the state of things, I wonder, and hence I express my curiosity about the origins and stories of this sword, and throw out the caution to those who have not experienced the fact that fakes are occuring in such a nature, that hey its nice, well done, but it is not old or probably royal. For me the greatest tragedy, is that a number of swords that do get re-habbed like this were suitable working swords, but lacked the sex-appeal of a fancy piece.

[wilked aka Khun Deng]

Frederico, completely understand your outlook. I had many of the same questions, which is why I put the ? after Datu to hopefully bring out this type of information. Ian has been dealing with this particular dealer for 10 years. He was blatantly honest about all the pieces he showed us pointing out flaws and newly made stuff. This sword was produced from the back room sometime into the visit and wasn't out for show. What he did tell us is that he must keep cash on hand as sellers come through intermittenly from down south and he has only one shot at the buy (cash only) and then they move on. This is how he acquired this one, someone came up from down south with several pieces and this was one of them. He said he usually keeps these in the back for his banker trade as they and doctors are apparently his best clientele. That's all I know.

I had also heard that rising to Datu class could only be achieved through marrage for you needed to trace your bloodlines back to the first Sultan who was believed to be a direct descent of (Suileman or was it Mohammed), however I thought there were some who also got it from amassing wealth?

As to could it have been stolen, honestly a question I'd rather not know, as I am to this day already somewhat conflicted about the posssibility of being accused of stealing someone else's national heritage.

Zamboanga brings up an excellent point (and he should know he's in the middle of it). The Colt and the M4 (M16 carbine version) are now the "status" pieces that the swords used to be. This is one of the ways to quickly identify which one in the troop is the Commander and with a raise in rank it is not unusual for an individual to seek any means to exhibit his new status. As for there not being many Datu class in the MNLF (reorganized as the MILF several years ago when they set up the Autonomous Region of Muslim Mindanao) Everyone is related to each other in some shape or form and it is all too commonplace for the Governors, Mayors, and political elite to be espousing the government position verbally and then helping out their relations in those organizations in anyway they can that can't be traced. It really is all about relationships in this country - which is NOT a bad thing just something to be aware of
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Spunjer and BluErf, your comments also are both right on as I understand the current situation.

Thanks for all the input guys.

[tom hyle]

With enough money, it's usually possible to come up with pretty much whatever research and whatever results you want, genetic or otherwise.
I personally believe that, at least in most nations (Australians make a possible notable exception, for instance, having perhaps never had kings over them before a couple hundred years ago, and conspicuously foreign ones then.), every human is descended of slaves and of kings. Likewise, everthing has been in some sense, at some point, stolen, and you must decide, I guess where the line accrues; we all steal life just to eat. We live on stolen land, bought in blood. All of us. Those who rent may still feel a twinge, if they think too much. How far back do you want to go? The Latins used to have a saying about the concept of "dirty money". "Money doesn't stink," they said. I have mixed feelings about the concept that buying antiques (as contrasted to literally stealing them) constitutes an assault upon the seller's cultural heritage. I must say that it is VASTLY my observation on the worldwide antique scene that the source of the majority of old stuff on the market (granted, this is slanted by it being stuff I can afford, but I have not found that tightly bounded by quality or even fanciness) is people for whom it is old junk they do not respect and do not want. And yes, I've acquired rusty old "junk" as junk, at junk prices, coming out of ancestor-worshipping central Africa, as well as Indonesia and PI. And yes, it was good stuff. Don't get me wrong; theives suck; Oh, I've been stolen from but it's an awful complicated ethical issue when you really think about it, and drawing the line may not be as simple as it seems.

[Ian]

Sorry to come in a little late on this one. Traveling again. Dan and I had a lot of fun doing the rounds in Manila a few weeks ago.

As Dan has said, this sword came from one of Manila's best edged weapon dealers with whom I have dealt for many years. Mr Ven had obtained it only a few days before we went to his shop, and this one came from the back room where he puts away expensive pieces for his local and international clients who can afford the better class items he finds.

Having handled this one, I am sure that the blade is 100+ years old. It has a separate gangya and a dark patina with no pitting, although a little active rust on the gangya (probably related to recent storage). The edge was straight and showed no dings or evidence of extensive wear/sharpening. Balance was good, and the blade felt lively despite being of quite heavy construction.

The pommel is old ivory, with prominent linear age cracks and a nice golden patina, and the silver appears to be older work also with wear from handling (as Dan stated).

The scabbard is probably a replacement, but a nicely made one none the less. Simple, well carved, nice dark patina to the wood, and silver fittings (or at least silver-plated). This is better than the recent work coming out of Mindanao, and looks circa WWII to me based on other examples I have that were well provenanced.

So I think Dan has acquired a nice Maranao kris with blade and hilt c. 1900 and scabbard perhaps somewhat later. Whether datu quality is hard to say. Certainly, much better than average in terms of the quality of fittings on the hilt.

The dealer also felt the blade was around 100 years old, but the scabbard was not as old.

Ian.

[Federico]

Datu class can be bought in a round about way. A prime example was Datu Piang, or Datu Pedro around the turn of the century. Though more pronounced in the case of Datu Piang, who was the child of a slave. With enough wealth, particularly Datu Piang, he improved his own standing through marriage, and then subsequently improved his children's standing through arranging upward marriages for them. The role of wealth really comes out through dowry prices. Poor datus need money, marriage to rich people becomes a win win situation.

As for backwards channels of money, shabu, kidnappings, and smuggling are very good ways to make money these days that are not as traceable as selling ones family heirlooms. I am Pilipino, and very much aware how family connections work in PI. But at a certain extent, things die down the further away one is related. A seventh cousin, five times removed may be able to get a few bucks from a richer relative, but to sell ones family heirloom, particularly if one still follows old traditions? Moroland would not be in as such dire straits if people were truly that magnaminous, yet one hears all the time of Muslim brothers living in Manila ghettos. I know I can only give so much to poor relations, and at a certain point, with my own child to feed it does become a question of the fact that you are still only my seventh cousin five times removed. Utang na loob, is not some mysterious blood debt as some Westerners would have it described, and while has meanings, is often not as strong as some would believe. I know a good test is at funerals. When my own father died, I watched who truly paid back their debts through their respects, and who were false and did not. Unfortunately, the number who were false, and knew only how to ask was quite high. Chismis and lipservices is just as common as Utang, though not paying attention to utang will destroy what little chance you have to move forward.

Anyways, as I stated before, old blades in newer made fittings, which in turn are made of older materials (eg. old ivory or wood), are becoming more and more common. These are the blades targetted towards the doctors, lawyers, and those with money, and have been popping up more and more in recent years. These are the trickiest pieces, and as with all the debate this piece is pulling up, are the most difficult to detect. I am glad to hear there was not a story put along with the blade. In itself it is great quality work, which is a testament ot Mr. Ven's integrity, as many other dealers will give a story. And in itself has quality that is inate. My primary concern is knowledge that, A. it is not completely original and B. many out there will use the upgrade as a selling point. Almost all the dealers in antiques in PI, have a similar story. An old Moro comes around, and that's how they buy their swords. For the vast majority of them it is not safe to go deep into Moroland. But there are some who do, it is from those I have heard and seen pictures of these pieces being cobbled together. It is from other collectors that who have seen people tear apart old pieces, re-hilt them, age them, and then pass them off as original that makes me wary. Hence my little warning, that the practice occurs. Now with rapid turnover, and the precarious nature of dealing, I can understand that stuff creeps in, even amongst the most honest, hence the need to be always alert.