Jamdhar katari - a theory

fernando · 29th May 2019, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Their mass-produced Patas ( Portuguese “paws”? Fernando, how am I doing?) were very flexible , designed to slash and bounce, distantly reminiscent of South Indian/ Sri Lankan Urumi...

Well said Ariel ... the translation, but not the attribution, i am afraid.
I would rather tend to the version in which the patá (पट) comes from the "Pathans, a subdivision of the Kchatrya cast, or Indian warriors, devoted to military life, in his fatherland as in other nations" (Friar Sebastião Manrique 1590 -1669). But i wouldn't put my hand on the chopping block for that ... even my (already) chopped off one

.

Jens Nordlunde · 29th May 2019, 04:41 PM

Are we now discussing patas, should they not be discussed on another thread?

fernando · 29th May 2019, 06:22 PM

Don't get upset Jens; diverting a bit doesn't hurt ! We are still in Indian weapons

.
Back on track, then

.

Jens Nordlunde · 29th May 2019, 09:38 PM

Hmmm - may be.

Jim McDougall · 30th May 2019, 01:13 AM

I agree with Jens, this discussion has gone 'nomadic' wandering off into the realm of the khanda and pata, which can be traced to the comment by Ariel (#214) noting the use of 'fragments of European rapiers' mounted in South Indian katars.

This comment developed 'legs' with my note (#223)in response suggesting that these katars noted were mounted indeed with fragments of European blades, but NOT of rapiers but full size arming blades. What took the wind was that I suggested that instances of use of the mounting of the thin rapier blades (fencing type) were likely for prestigious court weapons such as some khanda. I admit that I cannot now recall a khanda (firangi) with such a rapier blade.

Fernando (#225) then notes not to forget the pata with' European' blades (quoting my comment on rapier blades).

The discussion then devolves into the non sequiter debate on the skills and dexterity of Indian swordsmen with the pata, loosing track of the 'rapier' blade matter which brought these weapons into the mix.

I would simply say here, my mention of European 'rapier' blades was toward the VERY thin and narrow blades of 'rapiers' , those of swept hilt and cup hilt form, which were intended for civilian wear, and use in fencing (duels) etc.
These were NOT used as a rule in combat situations for obvious reasons, presumably these were so thin and narrow they would snap in the type of action required. I anxiously await being shown that description invalid.

Getting to the often contentious name game, the term rapier was often indiscriminately applied to swords in these times which had similar type hilts but the blades were much wider and more substantial (arming blades).

My remark on khanda or pata hilts with rapier blades as 'prestigious' character weapons may have been too broadly placed...…...and the references I have found note (usually pata) mounted with such 'rapier' blades (the exact character in heft unknown) were often used in demonstrations of skill of use, but not in field combat. It was noted that it was surprising that these were not more widely adopted (Pant).

I hope that will effectively close the rapier/pata /khanda chapter in this discussion on the JAMADHAR/KITARI, and that Bob and readers will accept my apologies for perpetuating the irrelevant 'rapier' issue.

ariel · 30th May 2019, 03:56 AM

Jim,
You have perfectly described the course of any freewheeling discussion: they tend to veer off in unexpected directions and then happily return back on track. This is one of the charming features of this Forum, although sometimes it may get rather annoying.

Steady as she goes, boys!

Jim McDougall · 30th May 2019, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Jim,
You have perfectly described the course of any freewheeling discussion: they tend to veer off in unexpected directions and then happily return back on track. This is one of the charming features of this Forum, although sometimes it may get rather annoying.

Steady as she goes, boys!

Roger that Ariel!!! I like that ….'freewheeling'

Actually I'm Ok with that idea, but sometimes some really good stuff, like this rapier blades on patas thing, get lost under the heading jamadhar kitari.

Actually I've been learning a lot on that as Ive kept researching it, and have found khandas with what appear to be rapier blades, and that patas did have them too. Years ago I read somewhere that Marathas disdained the thrust and only subscribed to slashing cuts...……..it sure would appear that's wrong.
So there's the beauty of conflict and different views...…..there are things to be learned. …..possibly this becomes a topic for its own thread.

Regardless, I see your point, and well stated.
Steady on boys

Bob A · 30th May 2019, 05:33 AM

This thread opened on a speculative note, and seems to have benefited from observations and excursions into the surrounding thoughtscape. One never knows what piece of information might strike a spark and illuminate the darkness, or what might be found therein.

Tangential byways sometimes lead to serendipitous discoveries, though I hasten to admit that Serendip is probably too southerly to be considered relevant to the subject(s) herein under discussion.

30th May 2019, 01:13 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,506	I agree with Jens, this discussion has gone 'nomadic' wandering off into the realm of the khanda and pata, which can be traced to the comment by Ariel (#214) noting the use of 'fragments of European rapiers' mounted in South Indian katars. This comment developed 'legs' with my note (#223)in response suggesting that these katars noted were mounted indeed with fragments of European blades, but NOT of rapiers but full size arming blades. What took the wind was that I suggested that instances of use of the mounting of the thin rapier blades (fencing type) were likely for prestigious court weapons such as some khanda. I admit that I cannot now recall a khanda (firangi) with such a rapier blade. Fernando (#225) then notes not to forget the pata with' European' blades (quoting my comment on rapier blades). The discussion then devolves into the non sequiter debate on the skills and dexterity of Indian swordsmen with the pata, loosing track of the 'rapier' blade matter which brought these weapons into the mix. I would simply say here, my mention of European 'rapier' blades was toward the VERY thin and narrow blades of 'rapiers' , those of swept hilt and cup hilt form, which were intended for civilian wear, and use in fencing (duels) etc. These were NOT used as a rule in combat situations for obvious reasons, presumably these were so thin and narrow they would snap in the type of action required. I anxiously await being shown that description invalid. Getting to the often contentious name game, the term rapier was often indiscriminately applied to swords in these times which had similar type hilts but the blades were much wider and more substantial (arming blades). My remark on khanda or pata hilts with rapier blades as 'prestigious' character weapons may have been too broadly placed...…...and the references I have found note (usually pata) mounted with such 'rapier' blades (the exact character in heft unknown) were often used in demonstrations of skill of use, but not in field combat. It was noted that it was surprising that these were not more widely adopted (Pant). I hope that will effectively close the rapier/pata /khanda chapter in this discussion on the JAMADHAR/KITARI, and that Bob and readers will accept my apologies for perpetuating the irrelevant 'rapier' issue. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 30th May 2019 at 02:15 AM.

29th May 2019, 04:41 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Are we now discussing patas, should they not be discussed on another thread?

29th May 2019, 06:22 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Don't get upset Jens; diverting a bit doesn't hurt ! We are still in Indian weapons . Back on track, then .

29th May 2019, 09:38 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hmmm - may be.

30th May 2019, 03:56 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, You have perfectly described the course of any freewheeling discussion: they tend to veer off in unexpected directions and then happily return back on track. This is one of the charming features of this Forum, although sometimes it may get rather annoying. Steady as she goes, boys!

30th May 2019, 05:33 AM	#8
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 441	This thread opened on a speculative note, and seems to have benefited from observations and excursions into the surrounding thoughtscape. One never knows what piece of information might strike a spark and illuminate the darkness, or what might be found therein. Tangential byways sometimes lead to serendipitous discoveries, though I hasten to admit that Serendip is probably too southerly to be considered relevant to the subject(s) herein under discussion.