Jamdhar katari - a theory

Bob A · 26th May 2019, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

What is interesting, IMHO, that blades of South Indian katars were flat to the point that many used a fragment of European rapiers. But the North Indian ones had inherently reinforced points in a manner of Zirah Bouks. Does it suggest that North Indians constructed them with a view to more heavily armored opponents?

An interesting point, so to speak.

I'm not sufficiently versed in battle wear of North or South Indians to come to a conclusion, but I suspect that the further south you travel on the Indian subcontinent, the lighter one's clothing must be. Stabbing through several layers of cloth and leather would require a sturdier blade than one that has little or no barrier between the attacker and the target's flesh.

This begs the question whether my jamdhr katari, with its 2mm blade thickness, hails from a southern area?

For comparison purposes, the thickest section of the katar blade illustrated above is about 9.6mm. The tool, ideally, defines its purpose.

Jens Nordlunde · 26th May 2019, 09:14 PM

Bob why dont you show us your katar?
Yes the difference of the blades can be big, especially on the early katars, and it could be due to the different way they dressed, but as Henderly wrote, the wounds from katars were very bad, I think he must have meant the wounds from the katars with the armourpiersing tips.

ariel · 27th May 2019, 06:17 PM

Wasn’t “ bad wound” a desired effect of using katars for their alleged main function, i.e. tiger hunting?:-)

Fernando, we seem to be on the same page ( both literally and figuratively).

fernando · 27th May 2019, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

...Fernando, we seem to be on the same page ( both literally and figuratively).

ariel · 28th May 2019, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob A

An interesting point, so to speak.

This begs the question whether my jamdhr katari, with its 2mm blade thickness, hails from a southern area?

For comparison purposes, the thickest section of the katar blade illustrated above is about 9.6mm. The tool, ideally, defines its purpose.

Bob,
Your last sentence perfectly captures the gist of this discussion. Engineering construction of any well-developed weapon is the strongest indicator of its intended mode of action. This, IMHO, is perfectly reflected in the Persian name of short bladed daggers with reinforced point: Zirah Bouk, Mail Piercer, a purely function-describing approach.

This is also why attempts to propose evolution of Ch’hura from “Karud” as a consequence of transitioning from real mail to padded clothing makes no sense: their blades are indistinguishable, and better defined lower stop of the Ch’hura’s handle further prevents hand sliding during stabbing action.

Why were Jamadhar Katari blades thin? I do not think that can serve as the evidence of its Southern origin; rather I would be interested to know whether mail was widespread in Kafiristan early on.

Any information?

Jim McDougall · 28th May 2019, 06:04 AM

In looking into the 'jamadhar-katari' there are a number of things to consider about these daggers as far as ethnographically as well as martially (in manner of use).
These were weapons of the Kafir tribes of Hindu Kush, regions of Eastern Afghanistan near Chitral areas. This region was known historically as Kafiristan as the tribes (collectively Kafirs) practiced an animist religion nominally with Hindu associations. When Pushtuns invaded and eventually converted many these areas became known as Nuristan.
The tribes relocated to avoid conversion to Islam, and here it becomes complicated. There are tribes known as Kalash believed to descend from the Kafirs in Chitral, while other Kafirs known as Siah-Posh (back robes) are in other areas (who claim they are not 'directly related to the Kalash).

Apparently these Kafir tribes were not easily subdued, probably mostly for their guerilla style warfare, and they were known for use of axes, bow and arrow, as well as the dagger. In images I have seen of one holding a dagger, it is like a 'fist' dagger grasped for downward stab.

I would note here an interesting detail, the tribes of Kafirs had of course different names, and one tribe decribed were known as the 'Katars'
This was found in an online reference about the Kafirs of Nuristan.
One of the sources listed was "Notes on Kafiristan" by H,G.Raferty , 1859.

In considering the construction of these jamadhar katari it seems there is concern directed to the thinness of the blade. It would appear these daggers have, like the khanjhar in Arabia, become a status symbol worn by men as an element of traditional wear. Obviously, these accoutrements are not made with the same martial soundness as earlier weapons intended for combat.

It does not seem like these Kafir tribes fought in pitched combat formations and as noted used bow and arrow and axes, with these daggers probably in close quarter contact. I would look forward to others insight into the case for use of mail by their opponents, but I strongly doubt that the Pashtuns who primarily fought them wore such armor.

27th May 2019, 06:17 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Wasn’t “ bad wound” a desired effect of using katars for their alleged main function, i.e. tiger hunting?:-) Fernando, we seem to be on the same page ( both literally and figuratively). Last edited by ariel; 28th May 2019 at 04:10 AM.

26th May 2019, 09:14 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Bob why dont you show us your katar? Yes the difference of the blades can be big, especially on the early katars, and it could be due to the different way they dressed, but as Henderly wrote, the wounds from katars were very bad, I think he must have meant the wounds from the katars with the armourpiersing tips.

28th May 2019, 06:04 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,627	In looking into the 'jamadhar-katari' there are a number of things to consider about these daggers as far as ethnographically as well as martially (in manner of use). These were weapons of the Kafir tribes of Hindu Kush, regions of Eastern Afghanistan near Chitral areas. This region was known historically as Kafiristan as the tribes (collectively Kafirs) practiced an animist religion nominally with Hindu associations. When Pushtuns invaded and eventually converted many these areas became known as Nuristan. The tribes relocated to avoid conversion to Islam, and here it becomes complicated. There are tribes known as Kalash believed to descend from the Kafirs in Chitral, while other Kafirs known as Siah-Posh (back robes) are in other areas (who claim they are not 'directly related to the Kalash). Apparently these Kafir tribes were not easily subdued, probably mostly for their guerilla style warfare, and they were known for use of axes, bow and arrow, as well as the dagger. In images I have seen of one holding a dagger, it is like a 'fist' dagger grasped for downward stab. I would note here an interesting detail, the tribes of Kafirs had of course different names, and one tribe decribed were known as the 'Katars' This was found in an online reference about the Kafirs of Nuristan. One of the sources listed was "Notes on Kafiristan" by H,G.Raferty , 1859. In considering the construction of these jamadhar katari it seems there is concern directed to the thinness of the blade. It would appear these daggers have, like the khanjhar in Arabia, become a status symbol worn by men as an element of traditional wear. Obviously, these accoutrements are not made with the same martial soundness as earlier weapons intended for combat. It does not seem like these Kafir tribes fought in pitched combat formations and as noted used bow and arrow and axes, with these daggers probably in close quarter contact. I would look forward to others insight into the case for use of mail by their opponents, but I strongly doubt that the Pashtuns who primarily fought them wore such armor.