New Keris for info

JustYS · 17th May 2019, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

That's EXACTLY what caught my eye and made me buy it! The pamor of the blade.

Very beautiful blade, is it pamor tambal?

David · 17th May 2019, 06:04 PM

I'll jump on the band wagon here Marius.
Yes, that's a beautiful keris penyalang (or panjang). Looks like it is really nicely crafted. But the tajong hilt is completely wrong for this style keris. Below i have posted a number of styles that would be far more appropriate and if this were mine i would replace it with one.

mariusgmioc · 17th May 2019, 07:04 PM

Thank you very much for the very interesting information.

So the pamor is?!

For the time being I have no replacement hilt and I will have to keep like this at least for a while.

Anyhow, I have seen at least another long keris with a similar hilt so maybe they are not that unusually wrong?!

Jean · 17th May 2019, 08:45 PM

IMO not only the hilt is not appropriate but also the sarong with a notch on the back side in Palembang style? Yes, the blade looks nice with the patches of pamor tambal but I wonder whether this is an old piece as old panjang/ alang/ bahari blades have no visible pamor? Please also compare the fine greneng carving with the one on David's blade which is typical of such old blades.

Regards

Rick · 17th May 2019, 08:52 PM

It does look rather fresh Jean, still I'd take that blade in a heartbeat.

It looks nicely executed (no pun intended) .

A. G. Maisey · 18th May 2019, 12:59 AM

Several things.

Pamor is koro welang tambal. This is a popular pamor in Jawa and Madura.

The greneng appears to be more Javanese than anything else.

Keris panjang were made in Central Jawa after, probably, 1850, and certainly in the PBX era. Some of these keris did carry pamor, but I have never seen nor heard of a complex pamor miring in one of these Javanese keris panjang.

Pamor koro welang is a complex pamor miring.

I have both owned and seen quite a few keris panjang, both with and without pamor, in various styles of dress. These styles include several Javanese styles of dress and Bugis/Peninsula styles of dress. I have never seen a keris panjang in Balinese dress.

There is a distinct tendency amongst present day collectors to want blades that are identifiable as coming from a particular geographic location to be dressed in wrongko and hilt from that location. Taken as a guiding principle this could possibly be acceptable. But in the real world it ignores the way things truly are in keris bearing societies.

For many & various reasons keris blades move around the entire keris bearing world, and indeed, far beyond the keris bearing world. Javanese blades were exported all over S.E. Asia, and as far afield as Sri Lanka, as far back as the 15th century.

We can routinely expect to find keris blades from one area in old keris dress that is associated with another area. In fact, when we move away from centers of population, and areas that were under the influence of one royal house or another, we will find genuine, old, highly regarded keris in a mixture of dress that the previous owners have used, and that reflects the changing fortunes or associations of the previous owners, rather than any geographical influences. For a broadly based collection, perhaps the very best criterion is one of quality.

David · 18th May 2019, 01:29 AM

I had assumed this was indeed a more contemporary blade Jean, and can't really use that as a criticism against this keris. I don't think Marius presented it as an antique. I just find it beautiful and well crafted.
As for the dress it is presented in, yes Alan, we can indeed find keris in old keris dress associated with other areas. But what we have here is a keris panjang that you see as possibly having Javanese origins dressed in a Palembang sheath with a Malaysian Tajong hilt. Firstly tajong keris have their own cultural norms as to the form of the sheath as well as the type of blade they contain. So now we have this Malay hilt form on a keris panjang. The panjang is in a Palembang sheath that is of the panjang type so if it is fitted properly i think we can consider that a good match. But this is not an regular keris. Unless i understand the form incorrectly a keris panjang designates a certain status, does it not? Certainly we do find genuine, old, highly regarded keris in a mixture of dress, but where would a status keris like a panjang be considered appropriate with a tajong hilt? It seems far more likely to me that this keris was dressed with what was available in the dealer's closet than for any authentic usage. I would still be looking for a replacement hilt if it were mine, but it is still a nice keris to look at as is.

17th May 2019, 06:04 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,222	I'll jump on the band wagon here Marius. Yes, that's a beautiful keris penyalang (or panjang). Looks like it is really nicely crafted. But the tajong hilt is completely wrong for this style keris. Below i have posted a number of styles that would be far more appropriate and if this were mine i would replace it with one. Attached Images

17th May 2019, 07:04 PM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	Thank you very much for the very interesting information. So the pamor is?! For the time being I have no replacement hilt and I will have to keep like this at least for a while. Anyhow, I have seen at least another long keris with a similar hilt so maybe they are not that unusually wrong?!

17th May 2019, 08:45 PM	#4
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	IMO not only the hilt is not appropriate but also the sarong with a notch on the back side in Palembang style? Yes, the blade looks nice with the patches of pamor tambal but I wonder whether this is an old piece as old panjang/ alang/ bahari blades have no visible pamor? Please also compare the fine greneng carving with the one on David's blade which is typical of such old blades. Regards

17th May 2019, 08:52 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,344	It does look rather fresh Jean, still I'd take that blade in a heartbeat. It looks nicely executed (no pun intended) .

18th May 2019, 12:59 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,035	Several things. Pamor is koro welang tambal. This is a popular pamor in Jawa and Madura. The greneng appears to be more Javanese than anything else. Keris panjang were made in Central Jawa after, probably, 1850, and certainly in the PBX era. Some of these keris did carry pamor, but I have never seen nor heard of a complex pamor miring in one of these Javanese keris panjang. Pamor koro welang is a complex pamor miring. I have both owned and seen quite a few keris panjang, both with and without pamor, in various styles of dress. These styles include several Javanese styles of dress and Bugis/Peninsula styles of dress. I have never seen a keris panjang in Balinese dress. There is a distinct tendency amongst present day collectors to want blades that are identifiable as coming from a particular geographic location to be dressed in wrongko and hilt from that location. Taken as a guiding principle this could possibly be acceptable. But in the real world it ignores the way things truly are in keris bearing societies. For many & various reasons keris blades move around the entire keris bearing world, and indeed, far beyond the keris bearing world. Javanese blades were exported all over S.E. Asia, and as far afield as Sri Lanka, as far back as the 15th century. We can routinely expect to find keris blades from one area in old keris dress that is associated with another area. In fact, when we move away from centers of population, and areas that were under the influence of one royal house or another, we will find genuine, old, highly regarded keris in a mixture of dress that the previous owners have used, and that reflects the changing fortunes or associations of the previous owners, rather than any geographical influences. For a broadly based collection, perhaps the very best criterion is one of quality.

18th May 2019, 01:29 AM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,222	I had assumed this was indeed a more contemporary blade Jean, and can't really use that as a criticism against this keris. I don't think Marius presented it as an antique. I just find it beautiful and well crafted. As for the dress it is presented in, yes Alan, we can indeed find keris in old keris dress associated with other areas. But what we have here is a keris panjang that you see as possibly having Javanese origins dressed in a Palembang sheath with a Malaysian Tajong hilt. Firstly tajong keris have their own cultural norms as to the form of the sheath as well as the type of blade they contain. So now we have this Malay hilt form on a keris panjang. The panjang is in a Palembang sheath that is of the panjang type so if it is fitted properly i think we can consider that a good match. But this is not an regular keris. Unless i understand the form incorrectly a keris panjang designates a certain status, does it not? Certainly we do find genuine, old, highly regarded keris in a mixture of dress, but where would a status keris like a panjang be considered appropriate with a tajong hilt? It seems far more likely to me that this keris was dressed with what was available in the dealer's closet than for any authentic usage. I would still be looking for a replacement hilt if it were mine, but it is still a nice keris to look at as is.