Identifying Pamor for a First Keris

[QuisUtDeus]

I can't find the glue and dye you recommended, Mr. A.G. I'll have to order them online and finish the woodwork later. What exactly is this 'bambu'?

There is a little wiggle in the base fit. What do I fill that with? I think for the warangka to match the shape of the blade I would have to do a lot of sanding. I don't do woodwork so don't have machines. It would have to be by hand.

[QuisUtDeus]

I neglected to ask what sort of thread is ideal to reinstall the hilt? Any knotting techniques? It seems to me squareknots would do well?

The old thread was really disgusting, I had to toss it. The seller must have taken his pictures after acquisition and then tucked away the blade for a long time.

What sort of oils are you all using. The Indonesians members say not to use synthetics. I'm inclined to agree with them. But anything you have to say I will also listen to.

[Rick]

Yarn for the handle; just wind it around, a knot is not really needed.
Do a forum search for keris oil and get lots of opinions and recipes.

[QuisUtDeus]

Originally Posted by Rick

Yarn for the handle; just wind it around, a knot is not really needed.
Do a forum search for keris oil and get lots of opinions and recipes.

Thank you! I'm still learning how to use the forum so have not been referencing who I am replying to. I know how to on my day off. A wonderful day off!

I would grow my hair and use that instead, but it takes awfully long to grow.

[QuisUtDeus]

Originally Posted by Rick

Yarn for the handle; just wind it around, a knot is not really needed.
Do a forum search for keris oil and get lots of opinions and recipes.

I've developed my own coconut oil base that I use for my hair. It is seasoned like Jamaican food. Not terribly different than Indonesian, but too complex for Filipinos. Very unlike Thai. I will try it.

[QuisUtDeus]

I read on the forum not to sharpen the blade. That makes me happy. It's still sharp enough, anyway. I've knicked myself a few times during cleaning.

Is a very light polish a bad idea? I have Cape Cod cloths I use for my watches and jewelry. This is something I'm good at already. I'm very tactile. I can feel when I've polished off less than a mm. I'll be able to retain the pamor.

[David]

Originally Posted by QuisUtDeus

I read on the forum not to sharpen the blade. That makes me happy. It's still sharp enough, anyway. I've knicked myself a few times during cleaning.

Is a very light polish a bad idea? I have Cape Cod cloths I use for my watches and jewelry. This is something I'm good at already. I'm very tactile. I can feel when I've polished off less than a mm. I'll be able to retain the pamor.

I would not attempt to polish this blade. Bali blade are traditionally polished when cleaned and stained, but i believe we have already established that is is not a Bali blade (probably Lombok) and it seems clear that re-polishing has not been the rule for this blade within its lifetime. If you polish this blade i believe you will ruin the surface.
Care and maintenance of keris is something which may take at least a little time to learn and understand. Being very new to the keris world i would recommend that you proceed with any form of restoration, or even conservation, with time and caution. This blade has been around for a while. I suggest that you don't rush to do anything as a wrong step might not only damage the physical blade, but the spirit and energy that you currently say you feel from this particular keris.

[QuisUtDeus]

Thank you all!

I thought that 'bambu' might be the wood but wanted to make sure. A lot of products these days use curious spellings for their names. I'm not in a rush. I will hold off on restoring the scabbard and buying the glue and dye. If I really need bamboo I will definitely wait until I visit the Philippines again to restore the scabbard. The wood is free and fresh, and I will have an experienced chemist and carpenter to help.

I am excited about this all, but I'm being very careful, so don't worry! I was worried about scratching the blade so contacted a man who restored swords. He recommended a scratchless cleaner and I am using it. So far no scratches! The blade is pretty much all clean now. The pindok is a real pain, though. I will let the lime take care of it.

I'm going to buy some beer now and chill out with my kreteks. Will upload pictures when I return!

[QuisUtDeus]

Fit:

[QuisUtDeus]

Sorry, I'm still not used to using the forum. This is how the blade fits:

[QuisUtDeus]

Originally Posted by David

I would not attempt to polish this blade. Bali blade are traditionally polished when cleaned and stained, but i believe we have already established that is is not a Bali blade (probably Lombok) and it seems clear that re-polishing has not been the rule for this blade within its lifetime. If you polish this blade i believe you will ruin the surface.
Care and maintenance of keris is something which may take at least a little time to learn and understand. Being very new to the keris world i would recommend that you proceed with any form of restoration, or even conservation, with time and caution. This blade has been around for a while. I suggest that you don't rush to do anything as a wrong step might not only damage the physical blade, but the spirit and energy that you currently say you feel from this particular keris.

Thanks! I won't polish the blade. I thought I might remove miniature specks of ugliness after the lime treatment, but I will leave it alone now.

I didn't want to put the blade immediately in lime juice. It seemed to me that the corrosion wouldn't come out even. I didn't wanted to do anything corrosive, but, man! That gunk and rust was really awful! It was deep into the ganjah!

[David]

Thanks for the additional photos. It doesn't look like you should have too much trouble adjusting the fit to this sheath.
The new photos reveal features that i hadn't quite noticed before, like the fullers that run almost 3/4 of the way up the blade. Frankly, the keris appears even less Lombok in these last shots. This isn't t say that it is not, but i feel like there are some Bugis influence working in there. Of course, that would not be completely out of character in Lombok i suppose. Anyway, certainly not a Bali blade. It does seem to be a nice keris regardless of its exact origins.
I hear that you are strong on traveling with this keris to the Philippines, but i personally would not consider making such a trip with it. You really do risk the chance of running into trouble whenever you cross boarders with it. If i were you i would try my best tp keep the keris in the States and do the work on your own.

[QuisUtDeus]

Originally Posted by David

Thanks for the additional photos. It doesn't look like you should have too much trouble adjusting the fit to this sheath.
The new photos reveal features that i hadn't quite noticed before, like the fullers that run almost 3/4 of the way up the blade. Frankly, the keris appears even less Lombok in these last shots. This isn't t say that it is not, but i feel like there are some Bugis influence working in there. Of course, that would not be completely out of character in Lombok i suppose. Anyway, certainly not a Bali blade. It does seem to be a nice keris regardless of its exact origins.
I hear that you are strong on traveling with this keris to the Philippines, but i personally would not consider making such a trip with it. You really do risk the chance of running into trouble whenever you cross boarders with it. If i were you i would try my best tp keep the keris in the States and do the work on your own.

I'm really happy to know that the keris is an odd piece! I am a very odd individual. Before I knew anything about kerises, luk 15 blades were the only appealing. 13 was ok. Less I didn't like at all. More than 15 looks goofy, even now. I didn't realize these things until I learned how to count the luks. Then I realized that old empus followed old numerology. 13 is actually the Creator's number: not at all evil. 7 is the midway, not evil as the Japanese see it. I see 15 as a new beginning -- a new cycle. I think I have been here many times. I think creation comes from imbalance. Perfect balance is infinity. Our limitation here is training for it.

I'm sad to see that many people use kerises for fortune and misfortune. This sort of selfishness only leads to curse. Whatever people intend through selfishness leads to nasty karma. I ask nothing. I do not meditate or pray. I work with what I'm given. I follow the clues I am given. We have everything we need to learn with -- especially without any faith. Everyone from Bill Gates to the starving child with a patient vulture nearby. I am not Muslim, but I will say, "Salaam."

It will take me time me a while to learn about Lombok, Bugis, and Bali. I really work a lot and have tens of books I haven't finished because I jump between them all. The books I will be collecting because of this forum are in a long line... I remember from my genetic research that Sulawesi is the closest cousin. I really don't like their hilts, though.

As far as bringing blades in and out of the Philippines, I have no worry. I'm a dual citizen. I pass through a separate line to enter just like I do when I enter the U.S. I am half American but I appear to be a local mixed person and there are a lot of us. I don't carry the foreigner aura that natives spot, even in a full-blooded Filipino who has been born and raised in America. I just appear and feel like a mixed Manileno. There are hundreds of thousands. My Tagalog isn't great, but it passes for a mestizo. I actually have more trouble entering the U.S. though I've spent most of my life in it.

The blades I've carried in and out are put in 'balikbayan' boxes -- taped up in exaggeration. They aren't cut open. Just put into cargo. I've never done anything illegal and will not. Even if I wanted to, Filipinos are far too sharp to underestimate. They will catch you. They all have a sixth sense. Remember that! Very important! Don't play with Filipinos. Just be fun!

The only issues I've heard of with weapons through the airport have been of bullets that airport employees have placed in carry-on's. They can try it if they want. But they will bother the actual foreigners, Filipino-by-blood or not. If they do bother me I will call their bluff. If They take my blade I will pay their bribe, but their woe will be very bad. Filipinos, despite being Christianized, Hispanicized and Americanized, are just as superstitious as their neighbors. The old Jungle grows in their veins just the same.

I will save this wood work and staining for the Philippines. If I don't go, so be it.

I am courting the keris with Guiness and Djarum kreteks while it bathes in lime. If I don't answer later it's because I am drunk. If I do answer later it will be because I am drunk.

Salaam, Thank you, Merci, and Salamat Po!

[QuisUtDeus]

I read that warangan for staining is made from 'raw orange arsenic' and 'realgar'. I imagine what nature provides in Indonesia is similar to the Philippines.

If I stain, I don't want a heavy stain. Maybe ripened calamansi will work?

I have been into the stone hobby for a while. I will find out what this 'realgar' is and if I can find it in the Philippines. I have never heard of this stone, before.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, you're right David, Alan was asleep and right now he's drinking coffee to help him wake up.

There are a lot of questions that seem to have been generated overnight, but there is really only one thing that needs to be attended to first, before the work on this keris can proceed.

I am going to assume that Quis wants the very best job that can be done on this wrongko , so I'm not going to advise any short-cuts, I'm going to try to provide advice that if done carefully will restore this wrongko to a better state than it was in before the damage occurred. This will take time and care.

The first thing to do is to remove the small pieces of wood that have broken away from the atasan or gambar of the wrongko. (top part of scabbard = atasan, gambar)

We do this by taking a couple of small pieces of cloth --- old handkerchiefs are good --- tearing the cloth into narrow strips, wetting those strips, squeezing excess water from them, and pushing them into the mouth of the gandar ("stem" of scabbard = gandar). We then take another couple of strips of cloth, wet them, squeeze out the excess water and wrap around the top of the gandar, over the broken pieces of wood adhering to it.

It might take anywhere between overnight and a few days for the adhesive that is holding the broken wood in place to soften sufficiently to permit it to let go of the broken wood. Check the wood every 12 hours or so, ensure that the cloth is kept damp.

When the adhesive bond softens sufficiently to release the wood, very gently free the broken pieces from the top of the gandar. At the same time carefully and gently use a small, sharp tool to remove the old adhesive, this old adhesive should be soft, so it should not be difficult to remove. You need to remove all of the old adhesive.

When the broken wood is free of the gandar and clean, and the inside mating surfaces of the atasan are clean, set everything aside for a few days and allow it to dry thoroughly.

When the pieces are dry let us have a look at the work you have done and we can move to the next step. The aim is to repair the atasan before we begin the job of re-aligning the blade and putting everything back together again.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A couple of other things we can consider now.

Rick is correct, woollen yarn is the best material to use for a hilt pressure fit. We use wool because it compresses as we fit the hilt, if the yarn that we use is too hard, for instance, if it were to be cotton, we run the risk of cracking the hilt.

To return to the place of origin of this keris blade (wilahan). Lombok has a very mixed population, it was settled relatively late, the Sasaks are regarded as the original inhabitants of Lombok, the island was under the control of Majapahit, Makasar controlled it for a while, then Bali, then the Dutch, settlers from Jawa, Sumbawa, Sulawesi, Bali came into the island, and the people living there now still identify with their ethnic roots. All of this mixing of cultures is reflected in keris styles, and often in later the keris the styles become mixed. We see some pretty strange keris that have come out of Lombok.

The gandhik of this keris is a form that in Solo is regarded as being associated with the Eastern Islands of the Archipelago. The heavy topographic sculpting of the blade body that results in deep kruwingan and distinct ada-ada is something that we can find in isolated examples from several places, but in Lombok extreme expression of blade topography is relatively common.

I am inclined to accept this keris as probably being of Lombok origin because I cannot identify any alternative origin that I could rationally defend.

David's advice to leave this keris where it is now is very wise.

For many years I have sent keris to countries throughout the world, I have personally carried keris from one country to another. In recent years it has become absolutely essential to have a thorough understanding of the laws of the country that one wishes to send a keris to, or carry one to. They are universally regarded as daggers or short swords and many countries have laws that will cause a keris to be seized at its borders.

Quis, if you are determined to take this keris to the Philippines I suggest that you seek advice from the Philippine embassy in your country of residence before so doing. Then seek advice from the Customs and police in the state or province in which you live as to the legality of bringing that keris home again.

A few days ago I returned to Australia from Indonesia. Over the years I have done this journey well over 100 times. I've been travelling to and from Indonesia since 1966. I re-entered Australia through the port of Sydney, before I went to Indonesia I obtained the appropriate police documentation (form B709B) that permitted me to bring daggers into Australia. Although daggers require no licence or permit to possess in my state of residence (NSW), they are prohibited imports under federal law, the Customs officials are Australian Govt. employees and they administer federal law, so even though it is perfectly legal for me to own a dagger (or daggers) in NSW, those federal employees need a statement from the NSW police that formally states this.

Before you take your keris out of your country of residence you must have a very clear, documented understanding of the applicable laws in the country where you live and the country you wish to take it to.

In respect of realgar and arsenic and blade staining.
All realgar is not equal.
All arsenic is not equal.
It is presently very difficult to obtain good quality warangan (realgar) in Indonesia. Last week I was having a conversation with a gentleman from Madura who takes blades from Bali & Jawa to Madura for staining, and I was telling him about the benefits of using laboratory quality arsenic for staining. He immediately began to pressure me to get some for him, but this is something I am totally unable to do.

Then there is the actual staining. It took me about ten years to learn how to do a passable stain job --- yeah, OK, I'm a slow learner. However, I did not learn how to do a good stain job until after I had been taught by two master m'ranggis in Central Jawa. It is not just a matter of getting hold of some warangan, either arsenic or realgar. It takes time to learn.

To properly clean a blade we often need to combine mechanical procedure with chemical procedure. This means that we use small sharp tools such as heavy needles or miniature scrapers to mechanically remove the deep rust that the acids will not remove.

Yes, "bambu" is bamboo.
Araldite is a two part epoxy resin, I do not know the name of equivalent adhesives in other countries, but I believe a few Google searches should help identify whatever is available wherever you are.

Kretek cigarettes are even more carcinogenic than tobacco.
Visit somebody in hospital who has lost his lower jaw and a part of his throat to cancer, and has that part of himself covered by a mask in order not to horrify his visitors and you will probably never touch another cigarette, let alone a kretek, for the rest of your life. Emphysema is not much fun either, and kreteks accelerate the process.

[David]

Originally Posted by QuisUtDeus

I can't find the glue and dye you recommended, Mr. A.G. I'll have to order them online and finish the woodwork later. What exactly is this 'bambu'?

There is a little wiggle in the base fit. What do I fill that with? I think for the warangka to match the shape of the blade I would have to do a lot of sanding. I don't do woodwork so don't have machines. It would have to be by hand.

Alan is in Australia, so it's probably sleep time for him at the moment. I am sure he will be back to answer you questions, though i believe i can answer some of them.
Araldite is a two-step epoxy. I am not sure if to is commercially available in the USA, though you can probably find to on the internet. Alan may correct me, but i am fairly sure that there are other two-step you could substitute if you wish.
I suspect that by "bambu" Alan was referring to bamboo. I believe that slivers of bamboo that Alan suggested inserted into the loose spaces will take care of the wiggle room you have. Please correct me if i am wrong Alan.
I don't believe anything you need to do here requires any machine working. It can all be done by hand.
Can you put the pieces together and insert the blade and make some photographs so that we can see how the blade fits (or doesn't) in the sheath? Both the veil from the side and the top as well would be helpful.

[La Pagaru]

absolutly this keris is bugis keris,,

[David]

Originally Posted by La Pagaru

absolutly this keris is bugis keris,,

I believe that is a distinct possibility. But from where? Bugis is very moveable feast.

[A. G. Maisey]

I have no problem with a Bugis influence for this keris.

The sorsoran, especially the indented gandhik and boto adeg blumbangan can be related to South Sulawesi, these features are also attributed to the Eastern Islands of the Archipelago, and the Bugis people occupied Eastern Lombok.

However, I personally do not know of Bugis keris with this very dramatic topographic treatment from South Sulawesi, or from anywhere other than Lombok.

I'd very much like to see examples of Bugis influenced keris that had this style of wilahan and that also had inarguable provenance for somewhere other than Lombok.

I know almost nothing about Bugis keris, I have never carried out research in South Sulawesi, so perhaps this style of keris can be found in South Sulawesi, or even in the Peninsula. But I do not know of examples that can illustrate this.

For me this is most likely a keris from Lombok, but most certainly we can accept Bugis influence.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I have no problem with a Bugis influence for this keris.

The sorsoran, especially the indented gandhik and boto adeg blumbangan can be related to South Sulawesi, these features are also attributed to the Eastern Islands of the Archipelago, and the Bugis people occupied Eastern Lombok.

However, I personally do not know of Bugis keris with this very dramatic topographic treatment from South Sulawesi, or from anywhere other than Lombok.

I'd very much like to see examples of Bugis influenced keris that had this style of wilahan and that also had inarguable provenance for somewhere other than Lombok.

I know almost nothing about Bugis keris, I have never carried out research in South Sulawesi, so perhaps this style of keris can be found in South Sulawesi, or even in the Peninsula. But I do not know of examples that can illustrate this.

For me this is most likely a keris from Lombok, but most certainly we can accept Bugis influence.

Alan, does this mean that you are not willing to accept a keris made outside of South Sulawesi as Bugis, only that it might be "Bugis influenced"? As we know, the Bugis people got around and had settlements all about the archipelago. If this keris was made in Lombok, but by a Bugis pande for a Bugis person would it not be fair to say that it might therefore be both from Lombok AND Bugis at the same time?

[A. G. Maisey]

Actually David, I believe I'm saying pretty much the same as you.

The Bugis originate in South Sulawesi.

They went all over the place.

One of the places they went to was Eastern Lombok, they settled there.

After a time Bugis keris made in Lombok sometimes acquired a style that was not seen in keris from other places.

In the case of this particular keris, I am of the opinion that it comes from Lombok, but has Bugis features, as well as other features that are the result of influences other than Bugis.

So it is a Lombok keris with Bugis influence.

There are probably a number of ways in which this idea could be expressed.

To move sideways a little bit. Wherever the Bugis people went, they made keris, but those keris are not identical with the Bugis keris that were made in South Sulawesi. In the book "Senjata Pusaka Bugis" we can find Bugis keris with stylistic variation that points to varying geographic locations of origin for those keris.

I had a quick flick through this book before I wrote post #60, I could not find any keris with similar deep kruwingan such as this keris has, but there are numerous examples of the indented gandhik, the style that in Solo in the 1980's was regarded by the keris elites as evidence of a keris from the Eastern Islands. At that time in Solo most people seemed to think that the world beyond Bali was remote and savage, so Lombok was lumped in with all the other Eastern Islands.

In "Senjata Pusaka Bugis" this gandhik style that was thought of as "Eastern Islands" by the Solo people, is identified as South Sulawesi.

Then I went to "Keris Lombok", and in this book we can see many examples of extreme topographic sculpting.

There are any number of combinations of words that can be used to classify this keris, but I have chosen "Lombok with Bugis influence". Anybody who does not like this combination of words is perfectly at liberty to choose their own.

[Sajen]

Could it be a Sumbawa blade?

[kronckew]

5=Minute Araldite= 5 min working time clear epoxy, araldite is a brand name. Pick any one that is available in your local area.