Identifying Pamor for a First Keris

QuisUtDeus · 13th May 2019, 05:03 AM

Haha! Ok, ok, you've all convinced me. I've got a day off tomorrow. I'll go the hardware store to get some carpenter's glue. I'll finish the cleaning, too.

I remembered today that my uncle in Manila was a chemical engineer. I doubt he would have trouble finding the proper arsenic. We could use native, freshly cut limes. It wouldn't be troublesome to bring the keris to Manila for staining.

My uncle's retirement hobby is woodworking. It would be fun to make a new scabbard and handle just for a fun project. I could then claim proper keris addiction. This is all assuming he doesn't get a bad vibe from the blade like my friend and ban it from his house.

I'm very happy you all think the blade is pre-WWII! The seller was a property liquidator who said that the keris belonged to a deceased consulate to Saudi Arabia, whose son was being commited to a nursing home. I was hoping the keris was old enough to be smithed the ritual way.

If this energy I am feeling is normal for a ritually smithed keris, I am very excited! I already have two purchases lined up from one of the collectors on this forum. They're beautiful. I wouldn't alter them.

I've found a bunch of mystical thread topics. I'll go bother those guys with the spirit stuff!

Thank you very much for all your observations. I will have to keep going over this all. I've already forgotten the proper word for 'mendak'...

A. G. Maisey · 13th May 2019, 06:17 AM

Quis, to repair your scabbard you do not need carpenter's glue, in fact, I strongly recommend against the use of modern woodworking glues for scabbard repair, the reason being that if some of that glue gets in contact with the blade it will be highly likely to generate rust.

Before you think about gluing anything together the first thing you need to do is to clean away all of the existing adhesive very carefully, without removing any of the wood that it adheres to.

Then you need to make whatever adjustments are necessary to the scabbard in order to provide as good a fit as possible for the blade. During this fitting process you will have the opportunity to make the joint between the top part of the scabbard, and the lower part of the scabbard neater than is presently the case.

Probably the very best adhesive for this scabbard joint is 5 minute Araldite, tinted with a tiny amount of burnt umber powder.

Bring the parts together, insert the blade and ensure you have a satisfactory fit. Sometimes the joint will be a little bit loose, a few very thin slices of bambu will take up the slack, even ordinary note paper can be used for this, but bambu is better. You put one slice on at a time, use the Araldite, until you have a joint that fits together without slack. Test the fit of the blade, it should be perfect at this time.Ensure the faces of the joint from the top to the lower part meet smoothly, this fit can be adjusted by the slices of bambu or paper. When you have everything just as it should be you can go ahead with the glue job.

Remove the blade from the scabbard and make a wedge from softwood that will exert light pressure against the two tongues that slip into the top part of the scabbard. Lightly coat the wedge with silicon car polish, this acts as a release agent.

Lightly score the surfaces of the tongues and the meeting surfaces inside the scabbard top, lightly brush silicon car polish onto your blade and set it aside, but within reach.

Mix your Araldite and put a very, very thin coating onto the meeting surfaces.

Insert your blade into the scabbard and align it to the top surface of the scabbard.

Hold the two parts of the scabbard in position with your left hand, remove the blade, insert the wedge.

Set the scabbard aside and upright, wait a few minutes until the adhesive has dried but not set, carefully scrape off any excess adhesive around the joint, both inside and out. Use a wooden scraper for outside, knives and chisels for inside. Wipe the outside with methylated spirits.

Check the blade for adhesive, remove any adhesive with a wooden scraper. Brush the blade with a toothbrush and methylated spirits to remove the car polish. Spray and brush with WD40 to remove the methylated spirits.

This might sound like a lot of work. It is not. Somebody who has done this job a few times will do the whole thing, including the joint clean up in about 30 minutes. Fitting and aligning can take a lot longer, but that depends on how bad the present fit is.

It is a good idea to check the blade fit before the adhesive cures and hardens. If the fit is not satisfactory, it is reasonably easy to break open the joint, clean it up, and do the job again. If the adhesive is permitted to cure and harden before checking, the job to correct fit becomes more difficult and uses much more time.

QuisUtDeus · 13th May 2019, 04:04 PM

Mr. A.G., you wrote just in time. I'm out of bed and was going to leave for the store soon. Attached are pictures of the break. The break isn't clean in the back; the glue is in tact and crack carries into the warangka (I think that's the word). How do I remove all this glue?

QuisUtDeus · 13th May 2019, 04:06 PM

Pictures of break and how it fits together:

QuisUtDeus · 13th May 2019, 05:13 PM

Also, I was planning to do a short lime juice bath as the final step for the cleaning. Should the seeds be strained? It's very important in cooking food. I don't see why it wouldn't be with iron. Many Indonesian members are very picky about the oil so I figure this would extend to the lime.

QuisUtDeus · 13th May 2019, 05:59 PM

I can't find the glue and dye you recommended, Mr. A.G. I'll have to order them online and finish the woodwork later. What exactly is this 'bambu'?

There is a little wiggle in the base fit. What do I fill that with? I think for the warangka to match the shape of the blade I would have to do a lot of sanding. I don't do woodwork so don't have machines. It would have to be by hand.

QuisUtDeus · 13th May 2019, 06:16 PM

I neglected to ask what sort of thread is ideal to reinstall the hilt? Any knotting techniques? It seems to me squareknots would do well?

The old thread was really disgusting, I had to toss it. The seller must have taken his pictures after acquisition and then tucked away the blade for a long time.

What sort of oils are you all using. The Indonesians members say not to use synthetics. I'm inclined to agree with them. But anything you have to say I will also listen to.

David · 13th May 2019, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuisUtDeus

I can't find the glue and dye you recommended, Mr. A.G. I'll have to order them online and finish the woodwork later. What exactly is this 'bambu'?

There is a little wiggle in the base fit. What do I fill that with? I think for the warangka to match the shape of the blade I would have to do a lot of sanding. I don't do woodwork so don't have machines. It would have to be by hand.

Alan is in Australia, so it's probably sleep time for him at the moment. I am sure he will be back to answer you questions, though i believe i can answer some of them.
Araldite is a two-step epoxy. I am not sure if to is commercially available in the USA, though you can probably find to on the internet. Alan may correct me, but i am fairly sure that there are other two-step you could substitute if you wish.
I suspect that by "bambu" Alan was referring to bamboo. I believe that slivers of bamboo that Alan suggested inserted into the loose spaces will take care of the wiggle room you have. Please correct me if i am wrong Alan.
I don't believe anything you need to do here requires any machine working. It can all be done by hand.
Can you put the pieces together and insert the blade and make some photographs so that we can see how the blade fits (or doesn't) in the sheath? Both the veil from the side and the top as well would be helpful.

La Pagaru · 24th May 2019, 02:20 AM

absolutly this keris is bugis keris,,

kronckew · 24th May 2019, 09:41 AM

5=Minute Araldite= 5 min working time clear epoxy, araldite is a brand name. Pick any one that is available in your local area.

13th May 2019, 04:06 PM	#4
QuisUtDeus Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 30	Pictures of break and how it fits together: Attached Images

24th May 2019, 02:20 AM	#9
La Pagaru Member Join Date: Jan 2017 Location: Indonesia Posts: 84	idetification absolutly this keris is bugis keris,,

13th May 2019, 05:03 AM	#1
QuisUtDeus Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 30	Haha! Ok, ok, you've all convinced me. I've got a day off tomorrow. I'll go the hardware store to get some carpenter's glue. I'll finish the cleaning, too. I remembered today that my uncle in Manila was a chemical engineer. I doubt he would have trouble finding the proper arsenic. We could use native, freshly cut limes. It wouldn't be troublesome to bring the keris to Manila for staining. My uncle's retirement hobby is woodworking. It would be fun to make a new scabbard and handle just for a fun project. I could then claim proper keris addiction. This is all assuming he doesn't get a bad vibe from the blade like my friend and ban it from his house. I'm very happy you all think the blade is pre-WWII! The seller was a property liquidator who said that the keris belonged to a deceased consulate to Saudi Arabia, whose son was being commited to a nursing home. I was hoping the keris was old enough to be smithed the ritual way. If this energy I am feeling is normal for a ritually smithed keris, I am very excited! I already have two purchases lined up from one of the collectors on this forum. They're beautiful. I wouldn't alter them. I've found a bunch of mystical thread topics. I'll go bother those guys with the spirit stuff! Thank you very much for all your observations. I will have to keep going over this all. I've already forgotten the proper word for 'mendak'...

13th May 2019, 06:17 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Quis, to repair your scabbard you do not need carpenter's glue, in fact, I strongly recommend against the use of modern woodworking glues for scabbard repair, the reason being that if some of that glue gets in contact with the blade it will be highly likely to generate rust. Before you think about gluing anything together the first thing you need to do is to clean away all of the existing adhesive very carefully, without removing any of the wood that it adheres to. Then you need to make whatever adjustments are necessary to the scabbard in order to provide as good a fit as possible for the blade. During this fitting process you will have the opportunity to make the joint between the top part of the scabbard, and the lower part of the scabbard neater than is presently the case. Probably the very best adhesive for this scabbard joint is 5 minute Araldite, tinted with a tiny amount of burnt umber powder. Bring the parts together, insert the blade and ensure you have a satisfactory fit. Sometimes the joint will be a little bit loose, a few very thin slices of bambu will take up the slack, even ordinary note paper can be used for this, but bambu is better. You put one slice on at a time, use the Araldite, until you have a joint that fits together without slack. Test the fit of the blade, it should be perfect at this time.Ensure the faces of the joint from the top to the lower part meet smoothly, this fit can be adjusted by the slices of bambu or paper. When you have everything just as it should be you can go ahead with the glue job. Remove the blade from the scabbard and make a wedge from softwood that will exert light pressure against the two tongues that slip into the top part of the scabbard. Lightly coat the wedge with silicon car polish, this acts as a release agent. Lightly score the surfaces of the tongues and the meeting surfaces inside the scabbard top, lightly brush silicon car polish onto your blade and set it aside, but within reach. Mix your Araldite and put a very, very thin coating onto the meeting surfaces. Insert your blade into the scabbard and align it to the top surface of the scabbard. Hold the two parts of the scabbard in position with your left hand, remove the blade, insert the wedge. Set the scabbard aside and upright, wait a few minutes until the adhesive has dried but not set, carefully scrape off any excess adhesive around the joint, both inside and out. Use a wooden scraper for outside, knives and chisels for inside. Wipe the outside with methylated spirits. Check the blade for adhesive, remove any adhesive with a wooden scraper. Brush the blade with a toothbrush and methylated spirits to remove the car polish. Spray and brush with WD40 to remove the methylated spirits. This might sound like a lot of work. It is not. Somebody who has done this job a few times will do the whole thing, including the joint clean up in about 30 minutes. Fitting and aligning can take a lot longer, but that depends on how bad the present fit is. It is a good idea to check the blade fit before the adhesive cures and hardens. If the fit is not satisfactory, it is reasonably easy to break open the joint, clean it up, and do the job again. If the adhesive is permitted to cure and harden before checking, the job to correct fit becomes more difficult and uses much more time.

13th May 2019, 04:04 PM	#3
QuisUtDeus Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 30	Mr. A.G., you wrote just in time. I'm out of bed and was going to leave for the store soon. Attached are pictures of the break. The break isn't clean in the back; the glue is in tact and crack carries into the warangka (I think that's the word). How do I remove all this glue?

13th May 2019, 05:13 PM	#5
QuisUtDeus Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 30	Also, I was planning to do a short lime juice bath as the final step for the cleaning. Should the seeds be strained? It's very important in cooking food. I don't see why it wouldn't be with iron. Many Indonesian members are very picky about the oil so I figure this would extend to the lime.

13th May 2019, 05:59 PM	#6
QuisUtDeus Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 30	I can't find the glue and dye you recommended, Mr. A.G. I'll have to order them online and finish the woodwork later. What exactly is this 'bambu'? There is a little wiggle in the base fit. What do I fill that with? I think for the warangka to match the shape of the blade I would have to do a lot of sanding. I don't do woodwork so don't have machines. It would have to be by hand.

13th May 2019, 06:16 PM	#7
QuisUtDeus Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 30	I neglected to ask what sort of thread is ideal to reinstall the hilt? Any knotting techniques? It seems to me squareknots would do well? The old thread was really disgusting, I had to toss it. The seller must have taken his pictures after acquisition and then tucked away the blade for a long time. What sort of oils are you all using. The Indonesians members say not to use synthetics. I'm inclined to agree with them. But anything you have to say I will also listen to.

24th May 2019, 09:41 AM	#10
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	5=Minute Araldite= 5 min working time clear epoxy, araldite is a brand name. Pick any one that is available in your local area.