Massive Spanish Naval Flintlock Blunderbuss Swivel Gun for comment

Fernando K · 3rd May 2019, 04:35 PM

Hello

Just to say that it seems to me that the primitive inscription was P M and that the stick of the R was added later, that is why it is badly inclined, or is an incision that already existed when the punch was stamped with the letters

Fernando K · 3rd May 2019, 09:29 PM

Hello

Assuming that the initials are PM, in the "Dizionario delle armi", edited by Mondadori, register two entries for PM:

P. M. "Acronym of Munich Peter"

P. M. "acronym of Meitinger Paul"

and going to the entrances:

Munich, Peter and Fiedrich German gunsmiths, of Soingen perhaps relatives both, who worked in the beginning / half of the six hundred, also Denmark. They were very dear.

Meitinger Paul. Armorer who worked in Innbrusch, in the second half of the Cinquecientos

Affectionately

Fernando K · 3rd May 2019, 09:41 PM

Hello

Someone who has access to STOCKEL to verify or discard these opinions ....

Affectionately

Jim McDougall · 4th May 2019, 12:56 AM

I am puzzled with the business on the RM marking, and Fernando K, very astute observation on the letters perhaps being PM with the 'P' later altered to an 'R'.
I don't have Stockel, and thus don't have any entries for Paul Meitinger, an Innsbruck armorer.
However I do have references to PM, Peter Munich as well as Friedrich, both were Solingen swordsmiths working in the 17th century, and seemingly part of a family by this name. However Peter often signed 'Munch'. His mark (mid 17th) was a bishops head flanked by initials PM .

While armorers and of course swordsmiths often did also work as gunmakers. I have never heard of the 'Munich's' being other than swordsmiths.

If Peter indeed marked the lock of a gun, why would it have a crown? and why would the 'P' be fashioned into a 'R'.

Also, I have always thought of the circular fixture on the lock denoting a Spanish lock ('miguelet'?) so why would a Spanish lock be made in Solingen?

I do not mean to discount the theory, but honestly do wonder on these matters.

corrado26 · 4th May 2019, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Hello

Someone who has access to STOCKEL to verify or discard these opinions ....

Affectionately

I don't know which version of the Neue Stöckel you have but in my last edition there is neither mentioned a Peter Munich or Munch nor a Paul Meitinger. Both names are not to be found. The only reported gunmakers in Solingen have been:

J.G. Jagenberger
Clemens Kalthoff
Johann Kalthoff
Mathias Kalthoff
F.W. Ortmann
Peiper & Co
Heinrich Peter
Heinrich Riffelmann

By the way: After having enlarged the crowned mark on the lockplate as big as possibble I am always still convinced that this is a "RM" and not a "PM"

corrado26

CutlassCollector · 4th May 2019, 10:51 AM

I've had a look through those two books for any useful information and cannot find an RM or PM.
There is however a crown over R stamped on the butt of a Spanish (or Neapolitan) swivel gun . There is no other information - apart from an indication placing it mid 18th century - and the photograph is small and grainy. Unfortunately the stamp is not visible.

No use for this thread - but I came across the observation that the pineapple motif often found on the front finials of trigger guards was introduced to honour Capt Cook and rapidly replaced the acorn after his death in 1779. A handy date line for English guns.

Cerjak · 4th May 2019, 05:42 PM

Dear All

Thank you very much for your comments, in these additional pics it is not clear if it is P or R but in the reverse side of the lock we can clearly see that we a have a R and M.
Best

Cerjak

Jim McDougall · 4th May 2019, 05:54 PM

If it is clearly an RM under a crown, then we need to look into where this marking configuration on the lock was used, and if the initials R M correspond to a maker in either Spain or Naples or if other markings such as CC notes apply

It is notable that the crowned R on the butt is seen on Spanish/Neopolitan guns of this type in mid 18th c. so the RM on the lock is of course the question. Is the R on the butt indicative of a maker? In the Palomares compendium of Toledo swordsmiths the crown over a letter is seen often, but there are none with letter R so the butt mark is curious as well.

Where are the guys with gunmakers resources here?

4th May 2019, 12:56 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	I am puzzled with the business on the RM marking, and Fernando K, very astute observation on the letters perhaps being PM with the 'P' later altered to an 'R'. I don't have Stockel, and thus don't have any entries for Paul Meitinger, an Innsbruck armorer. However I do have references to PM, Peter Munich as well as Friedrich, both were Solingen swordsmiths working in the 17th century, and seemingly part of a family by this name. However Peter often signed 'Munch'. His mark (mid 17th) was a bishops head flanked by initials PM . While armorers and of course swordsmiths often did also work as gunmakers. I have never heard of the 'Munich's' being other than swordsmiths. If Peter indeed marked the lock of a gun, why would it have a crown? and why would the 'P' be fashioned into a 'R'. Also, I have always thought of the circular fixture on the lock denoting a Spanish lock ('miguelet'?) so why would a Spanish lock be made in Solingen? I do not mean to discount the theory, but honestly do wonder on these matters. Attached Images

4th May 2019, 10:51 AM	#6
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 343	I've had a look through those two books for any useful information and cannot find an RM or PM. There is however a crown over R stamped on the butt of a Spanish (or Neapolitan) swivel gun . There is no other information - apart from an indication placing it mid 18th century - and the photograph is small and grainy. Unfortunately the stamp is not visible. No use for this thread - but I came across the observation that the pineapple motif often found on the front finials of trigger guards was introduced to honour Capt Cook and rapidly replaced the acorn after his death in 1779. A handy date line for English guns. Attached Images

4th May 2019, 05:42 PM	#7
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Dear All Thank you very much for your comments, in these additional pics it is not clear if it is P or R but in the reverse side of the lock we can clearly see that we a have a R and M. Best Cerjak Attached Images

3rd May 2019, 04:35 PM	#1
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 671	Hello Just to say that it seems to me that the primitive inscription was P M and that the stick of the R was added later, that is why it is badly inclined, or is an incision that already existed when the punch was stamped with the letters

3rd May 2019, 09:29 PM	#2
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 671	Hello Assuming that the initials are PM, in the "Dizionario delle armi", edited by Mondadori, register two entries for PM: P. M. "Acronym of Munich Peter" P. M. "acronym of Meitinger Paul" and going to the entrances: Munich, Peter and Fiedrich German gunsmiths, of Soingen perhaps relatives both, who worked in the beginning / half of the six hundred, also Denmark. They were very dear. Meitinger Paul. Armorer who worked in Innbrusch, in the second half of the Cinquecientos Affectionately

3rd May 2019, 09:41 PM	#3
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 671	Hello Someone who has access to STOCKEL to verify or discard these opinions .... Affectionately

4th May 2019, 05:54 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	If it is clearly an RM under a crown, then we need to look into where this marking configuration on the lock was used, and if the initials R M correspond to a maker in either Spain or Naples or if other markings such as CC notes apply It is notable that the crowned R on the butt is seen on Spanish/Neopolitan guns of this type in mid 18th c. so the RM on the lock is of course the question. Is the R on the butt indicative of a maker? In the Palomares compendium of Toledo swordsmiths the crown over a letter is seen often, but there are none with letter R so the butt mark is curious as well. Where are the guys with gunmakers resources here?