Spanish Maker

Jim McDougall · 27th April 2019, 02:31 AM

Oliver,
As you know I am not real up to speed on firearms, but I did go to what general resources I have. In 'Gyngell' p.106 is this illustration of a marking configuration which seems to correspond to what you describe.

It does not have the rampant lion, and of course the 'stacked' in three name abbreviation does not match, but checking in Gardner ("Small Arms Makers", p.325, URQUIOLA is listed 1680-1714 in Madrid; then again in Madrid 1815-31.

While the makers name does not match, and the rampant lion is absent, I thought perhaps this marking convention might indicate at least possible Madrid manufacture. While Spanish type markings, the 'ANO' suffix does sound Italian. Not impossible that an Italian gunsmith might be there and use similar marking techniques. The absence of the lion may suggest subordinate to makers with royal contract ? or some such administrative situation .

Oliver Pinchot · 27th April 2019, 02:55 AM

Thank you, Jim. That's precisely the design.
Just looking for that maker.
If the owner consents to allow me pics of the
piece, I will certainly post them.

Jim McDougall · 27th April 2019, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Thank you, Jim. That's precisely the design.
Just looking for that maker.
If the owner consents to allow me pics of the
piece, I will certainly post them.

I don't have Lavin, or other gun books, but maybe search into Madrid makers might be good. Hope somebody out there might have such resources.
Pics would be great!
Meanwhile I always keep looking where I can .
All the best Oliver!

fernando · 27th April 2019, 12:31 PM

It is a surprise that Oliver doesn't have Gavin's book.
I would not need to emphasize that, the three row letters group in a shield, is by far the marking system used by the then Spanish gunsmiths. They even used different schemes to initialize their names to comply (aesthetically) with such method.
The (rampart) lion comes next ... and the Latin cross right after.
Going through the sources (Lavin, Armeria), only one GRE. (gorio López) shows up.
But while Lavin admits that he lists in his work 110 smiths, he reminds that Støckel doubles that, although in may cases unable to indicate either the place or the smith's activity period.
An Italian smith using the Spanish marking type ? possible ... but, i have it for me that, this could be a less publicized Spanish smith; considering the accuracy of the initials memorized by Oliver. An image of the actual mark will be a nuclear factor.

Oliver Pinchot · 27th April 2019, 06:20 PM

I was visiting a client who was unwilling to have the musket photographed.
He has since sent these pics.
I've checked my library, but am unable to find this maker.

fernando · 27th April 2019, 09:18 PM

It really takes eagle eyes to discern the contents of such damaged lettering; i confess i couldn't do it myself.The GRº for Gregorio seems consistent; the rest, i wouldn't know. It still could be the name of a Spaniard; Arcano, Marcano.
I wonder what Fernando K has to say about this mark.
A (hunting) escopeta ... Africanized ?

Oliver Pinchot · 27th April 2019, 09:28 PM

The owner insisted it was French, that he had bought it in France,
and that it had been there for "many generations." The inlays in the stock are bone and mother of pearl.

Philip · 29th April 2019, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

But while Lavin admits that he lists in his work 110 smiths, he reminds that Støckel doubles that, although in may cases unable to indicate either the place or the smith's activity period.
An Italian smith using the Spanish marking type ? possible ... but, i have it for me that, this could be a less publicized Spanish smith; .

Fernando, you raise some interesting points for discussion.

A. The photo of the maker's punzón is quite clear as to the lettering except for some defacement on the penultimate line. Taking DAR ... ANO and checking the listing in Stöckel reveals no such combination, no matter what letters may fall in between. As you suggest, it may reflect the name of an obscure maker. And it may be that there's more work to be done in documenting all those Iberian gunsmiths whose names have not appeared in the published references to date. As a small example, over a year ago I purchased a very fine Eibar-made shotgun, ca 1790s, signed on lock and marked on barrel by a maker with a very unusual surname - Murúa. No mention of him in Lavin, Neal, or Stöckel. At first I even doubted it was Spanish, and only after checking the US Census Dept's list of Spanish surnames was able to verify that indeed it was.

Furthermore, there is no requirement that we take the 3-letter combinations in Oliver's photo at face value. If you would re-read Lavin pp 214-215 he explains that these can be quite cryptic, including abbreviations, using non-standard spellings, or even incorporating place names.

B. I do believe that although the identity of the maker is a mystery at this moment, I can recognize certain stylistic elements that point to this shotgun originating in the Eibar area (foothills of the western Pyrenees adjacent to the Bay of Biscay, where Spain's sporting arms industry is centered even today). The boot-shaped "Catalan"style buttstock was popular here, as was a half stock barrel mounting with a single capucine on the abbreviated forestock. Also, the cock jaws on locks made in this region are long and slender, a conservative feature harking back to the 17th century but remaining in vogue through the end of the 18th. This basic format (albeit minus the rather garish stock inlays) can be seen on an Eibar fowling piece of restrained elegance but of the highest quality in the Metropolitan Museum of Art acc. no. 16.135, bearing the marks of Antonio Guisasola (barrel) and Juan Navarro (lock). The Murúa shotgun in my collection shares the same design.

C. The Spanish format of barrel breech markings was used in Italy - specifically Naples, which is not unexpected considering that this city was the seat of Spanish rule over the southern half of Italy which lasted for centuries. The familiar features that we associate with Spanish markings: the cross upon the arched base, the fleurs-de-lys, punzones and heraldic seals, are present.

fernando · 29th April 2019, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

... If you would re-read Lavin pp 214-215 he explains that these can be quite cryptic, including abbreviations, using non-standard spellings, or even incorporating place names...

As i have tried to put in post #7 ... perhaps in an insufficient manner

...

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

... I would not need to emphasize that, the three row letters group in a shield, is by far the marking system used by the then Spanish gunsmiths. They even used different schemes to initialize their names to comply (aesthetically) with such method...

Jim McDougall · 29th April 2019, 11:36 PM

Wonderful insights here!!
If I may, with these characteristics of the punzone grouping, the apparent absence of this makers name in Spanish records, and what appears an Italian suffix in the name.....is it possible this is a provincial piece?

If this format of marking was also used in Naples, a province of Spain, could this maker have fashioned this gun with the influence of the Catalan style which must have been somewhat known there? Certainly such an apparently quality piece might have been commissioned requesting that character.

While we know the fluer de lis was not exclusively French, but with the Bourbon denominator known in Spain and Italy of course, what of the rampant lion?

27th April 2019, 02:31 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Oliver, As you know I am not real up to speed on firearms, but I did go to what general resources I have. In 'Gyngell' p.106 is this illustration of a marking configuration which seems to correspond to what you describe. It does not have the rampant lion, and of course the 'stacked' in three name abbreviation does not match, but checking in Gardner ("Small Arms Makers", p.325, URQUIOLA is listed 1680-1714 in Madrid; then again in Madrid 1815-31. While the makers name does not match, and the rampant lion is absent, I thought perhaps this marking convention might indicate at least possible Madrid manufacture. While Spanish type markings, the 'ANO' suffix does sound Italian. Not impossible that an Italian gunsmith might be there and use similar marking techniques. The absence of the lion may suggest subordinate to makers with royal contract ? or some such administrative situation . Attached Images

27th April 2019, 06:20 PM	#5
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 464	I was visiting a client who was unwilling to have the musket photographed. He has since sent these pics. I've checked my library, but am unable to find this maker. Attached Images

27th April 2019, 02:55 AM	#2
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 464	Thank you, Jim. That's precisely the design. Just looking for that maker. If the owner consents to allow me pics of the piece, I will certainly post them.

27th April 2019, 12:31 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	It is a surprise that Oliver doesn't have Gavin's book. I would not need to emphasize that, the three row letters group in a shield, is by far the marking system used by the then Spanish gunsmiths. They even used different schemes to initialize their names to comply (aesthetically) with such method. The (rampart) lion comes next ... and the Latin cross right after. Going through the sources (Lavin, Armeria), only one GRE. (gorio López) shows up. But while Lavin admits that he lists in his work 110 smiths, he reminds that Støckel doubles that, although in may cases unable to indicate either the place or the smith's activity period. An Italian smith using the Spanish marking type ? possible ... but, i have it for me that, this could be a less publicized Spanish smith; considering the accuracy of the initials memorized by Oliver. An image of the actual mark will be a nuclear factor.

27th April 2019, 09:18 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	It really takes eagle eyes to discern the contents of such damaged lettering; i confess i couldn't do it myself.The GRº for Gregorio seems consistent; the rest, i wouldn't know. It still could be the name of a Spaniard; Arcano, Marcano. I wonder what Fernando K has to say about this mark. A (hunting) escopeta ... Africanized ?

27th April 2019, 09:28 PM	#7
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 464	The owner insisted it was French, that he had bought it in France, and that it had been there for "many generations." The inlays in the stock are bone and mother of pearl.

29th April 2019, 11:36 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Wonderful insights here!! If I may, with these characteristics of the punzone grouping, the apparent absence of this makers name in Spanish records, and what appears an Italian suffix in the name.....is it possible this is a provincial piece? If this format of marking was also used in Naples, a province of Spain, could this maker have fashioned this gun with the influence of the Catalan style which must have been somewhat known there? Certainly such an apparently quality piece might have been commissioned requesting that character. While we know the fluer de lis was not exclusively French, but with the Bourbon denominator known in Spain and Italy of course, what of the rampant lion?