Valuable sticks

Tim Simmons · 21st April 2006, 07:18 AM

wow! I was not thinking of the "freak show" more the late 19th cent cataloguing and dubious science carried out on people new to Europeans. This I am sure was the forefather of ideas of eugenics and the ultimate disaster that led to. Or am I just loosing my grip

.

yuanzhumin · 21st April 2006, 08:44 AM

Well, should we advocate for the return of these " artpieces " to Europe or China?
The body artist is Gunther Von Hagens, from Germany, but it is said that some of the corpses are coming from China (they have a lot of death row prisoners there to help supply) where he maintains a center for plastination of the bodies. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunther_von_Hagens

ariel · 21st April 2006, 12:07 PM

Now we know where he got his genes from....At 12,000 euros a day,he must be a multimillionaire by now.
There is an unofficial ban in the scientific community on all studies done by the German scientists during WWII that involved prisoners: these papers are just not cited.
Some time ago, at a meeting, a colleague from France did show some microscopy pictures from that era and casually noted that the materials were obtained from concentration camps. I confronted him; he apologized and left the meeting right away.

Andrew · 21st April 2006, 01:23 PM

I, myself, contributed to the off-topic frolic and detour. Let's all take a deep breath and return to the topic now.

Artifacts, not bodies.

yuanzhumin · 21st April 2006, 02:10 PM

What about body art like scarifications, traditional tattoes, reduced heads or trophy heads ?

To go back to our initial subject, about stolen artpieces and their return, all this reminds me of an interesting anecdote about the Nok terracotta from Nigeria.Few were bought completely illegally few years ago by the Louvre Museum before its ethnologic collections were transfered to the Quai Branly Museum, in Paris.The whole story is told in a very interesting article of the serious french newspaper Le Monde, translated in english and published on the website of an american university. Here is the link:
https://listhost.uchicago.edu/piperm...ry/001122.html

nechesh · 21st April 2006, 05:03 PM

I think that for me that most important issue here is how was the artifact originally obtained. Artifacts stolen outright from various cultures around the world should be returned if they want them, plain and simple.
Andrew, i am sorry to go off topic for a moment and i don't mean to prolong this discussion. I just hate rumor and inuendo. I don't really know how i feel about this body art guy, but i see no evidence that he is using the bodies of Chinese prisoners for his purposes. They are donated by their owners prior to death as far as i can tell and the "artists" best friend is apparently among them.

But there does seem to be some scientific merit at work here.
http://www.koerperwelten.de/en/pages...von_hagens.asp

Rick · 21st April 2006, 05:52 PM

I'm not even going to that link ; nosiree bob .

So back to the subject ; which category do battlefield pickups fall into ?

If Venice was forced to return all of its booty ( no, not that kind

) it would lose some of its gloss .

21st April 2006, 07:18 AM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	wow! I was not thinking of the "freak show" more the late 19th cent cataloguing and dubious science carried out on people new to Europeans. This I am sure was the forefather of ideas of eugenics and the ultimate disaster that led to. Or am I just loosing my grip .

21st April 2006, 08:44 AM	#2
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	Well, should we advocate for the return of these " artpieces " to Europe or China? The body artist is Gunther Von Hagens, from Germany, but it is said that some of the corpses are coming from China (they have a lot of death row prisoners there to help supply) where he maintains a center for plastination of the bodies. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunther_von_Hagens

21st April 2006, 12:07 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Now we know where he got his genes from....At 12,000 euros a day,he must be a multimillionaire by now. There is an unofficial ban in the scientific community on all studies done by the German scientists during WWII that involved prisoners: these papers are just not cited. Some time ago, at a meeting, a colleague from France did show some microscopy pictures from that era and casually noted that the materials were obtained from concentration camps. I confronted him; he apologized and left the meeting right away.

21st April 2006, 01:23 PM	#4
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I, myself, contributed to the off-topic frolic and detour. Let's all take a deep breath and return to the topic now. Artifacts, not bodies.

21st April 2006, 02:10 PM	#5
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	What about body art like scarifications, traditional tattoes, reduced heads or trophy heads ? To go back to our initial subject, about stolen artpieces and their return, all this reminds me of an interesting anecdote about the Nok terracotta from Nigeria.Few were bought completely illegally few years ago by the Louvre Museum before its ethnologic collections were transfered to the Quai Branly Museum, in Paris.The whole story is told in a very interesting article of the serious french newspaper Le Monde, translated in english and published on the website of an american university. Here is the link: https://listhost.uchicago.edu/piperm...ry/001122.html

21st April 2006, 05:03 PM	#6
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I think that for me that most important issue here is how was the artifact originally obtained. Artifacts stolen outright from various cultures around the world should be returned if they want them, plain and simple. Andrew, i am sorry to go off topic for a moment and i don't mean to prolong this discussion. I just hate rumor and inuendo. I don't really know how i feel about this body art guy, but i see no evidence that he is using the bodies of Chinese prisoners for his purposes. They are donated by their owners prior to death as far as i can tell and the "artists" best friend is apparently among them. But there does seem to be some scientific merit at work here. http://www.koerperwelten.de/en/pages...von_hagens.asp

21st April 2006, 05:52 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	I'm not even going to that link ; nosiree bob . So back to the subject ; which category do battlefield pickups fall into ? If Venice was forced to return all of its booty ( no, not that kind ) it would lose some of its gloss .