A 17th century cutlass

MForde · 28th March 2019, 03:51 PM

That's fantastic. So much history in the hand!

Jim McDougall · 28th March 2019, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MForde

That's fantastic. So much history in the hand!

Absolutely!!!! and especially GOOD hands in the case of Cap'n Mark!!! whose writing is 'living history'

!

Jim McDougall · 28th March 2019, 05:13 PM

OK Mark, finally found Neumann (1973) and on p,158 (#289.S) there is a horsemans sabre with remarkably similar hilt, which is classified as 'European'. There was so much diffusion and cross influence in the Continent with these hilt styles that while vague, it is the only prudent term without specific provenance.
The blade on this on is similar in fullering etc. and the sword is placed c. 1700-30, and of about 33" (cavalry length). Also, the bilobate guards of the 'walloon' type swords remain intact.

Neumann notes that these bilobate 'shell' guards were carried well into the 18th c. and refers to other similar types in 33.s to 35..
In checking this, 34.S is significant as the other two with all three examples being German and latter 17th into early 18th.

Here I note that 34.S. is the closest match to this hilt, and has the thumb ring and well as the dual lobed feature in the hilt branches, the sharply down turned quillon, and pommel with inserted branches.

With this I would suggest this is a German hanger of c. 1700-30 with the guard open ring rather than bilobate shells. The curiously themed engraving on the blade remains a mystery, and I think we might find more in some of the blade motifs in French context in 18th c.

M ELEY · 29th March 2019, 05:38 AM

Hello Jim,old friend,and thanks for responding. I also suspected that my dating to the earlier period might be incorrect, but it is hard to tell with this pattern, as the changes over time were subtle. For instance, many of the earlier mortuary hilts and early Walloons had screws in the pommel securing the knuckle bow and many experts point out that later swords got rid of the screw and just had the bow poking through a hole in the pommel. Neumann shows the transition in several of his listed swords. Leslie Southwick, however, did show several early transitional swords without the pommel screw, just the knuckle bow directly piercing the pommel on weapons dating to the 1660's, 70's, 80's. Likewise, I saw a very similar pommel shape to mine on a piece dated ca. 1690. In truth I was hoping for the earlier date, as it fit into the Brethren of the Coast period-

, but the facts don't lie.(unless Jasper comes in with a different opinion!)

In any case, a time period of 1700-30 still leaves it within the boundaries of the Pirate Golden Age. As you pointed out, the German sword makers were in high demand and their product swept all across Europe. The fact that the general pattern of this sword made it popular in the Low Countries is fine by me. The Dutch, Danes and Swedes were all in the Caribbean by this time (Sweden had their own pirate/privateer flotilla guarding their coast from invasion).Likewise, if we are to attribute this sword to a French association, the French were likewise heavily involved in piracy in the West Indies and other regions at this time frame.

midelburgo · 29th March 2019, 11:38 AM

I think the portrait is a generic Holy Roman (Germanic), Emperor. He has a mustache!

Possibly Leopold I (d1705) although just kept as a decorative motif. He was the last one sporting a mustache.

Jim McDougall · 29th March 2019, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by midelburgo

I think the portrait is a generic Holy Roman (Germanic), Emperor. He has a mustache!

Possibly Leopold I (d1705) although just kept as a decorative motif. He was the last one sporting a mustache.

EXCELLENT!!!

Good catch Midelburgo, with that acanthus wreath on the head I was associating with the neo ckassic thing later in the 18thc especially in France....but this solidly puts the notion further back and as you well note in the Germanic context. .....the thumb ring factor in place (Germany).

M ELEY · 30th March 2019, 05:54 AM

Wow! That is a match in my book! Even the way his mustache is wedge-shaped seems to match the profile on the blade. Based on Jim's succinct time frame and country of origin, it nicely works out! Thank you Midelburgo and Cap'n Jim for all your help pinning this one down! I'm happy that it still fits the bill for a "Golden Age" piece.
Mark

29th March 2019, 11:38 AM	#5
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 264	I think the portrait is a generic Holy Roman (Germanic), Emperor. He has a mustache! Possibly Leopold I (d1705) although just kept as a decorative motif. He was the last one sporting a mustache. Attached Images

28th March 2019, 03:51 PM	#1
MForde Member Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: UK Posts: 36	That's fantastic. So much history in the hand!

28th March 2019, 05:13 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	OK Mark, finally found Neumann (1973) and on p,158 (#289.S) there is a horsemans sabre with remarkably similar hilt, which is classified as 'European'. There was so much diffusion and cross influence in the Continent with these hilt styles that while vague, it is the only prudent term without specific provenance. The blade on this on is similar in fullering etc. and the sword is placed c. 1700-30, and of about 33" (cavalry length). Also, the bilobate guards of the 'walloon' type swords remain intact. Neumann notes that these bilobate 'shell' guards were carried well into the 18th c. and refers to other similar types in 33.s to 35.. In checking this, 34.S is significant as the other two with all three examples being German and latter 17th into early 18th. Here I note that 34.S. is the closest match to this hilt, and has the thumb ring and well as the dual lobed feature in the hilt branches, the sharply down turned quillon, and pommel with inserted branches. With this I would suggest this is a German hanger of c. 1700-30 with the guard open ring rather than bilobate shells. The curiously themed engraving on the blade remains a mystery, and I think we might find more in some of the blade motifs in French context in 18th c.

29th March 2019, 05:38 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,158	Hello Jim,old friend,and thanks for responding. I also suspected that my dating to the earlier period might be incorrect, but it is hard to tell with this pattern, as the changes over time were subtle. For instance, many of the earlier mortuary hilts and early Walloons had screws in the pommel securing the knuckle bow and many experts point out that later swords got rid of the screw and just had the bow poking through a hole in the pommel. Neumann shows the transition in several of his listed swords. Leslie Southwick, however, did show several early transitional swords without the pommel screw, just the knuckle bow directly piercing the pommel on weapons dating to the 1660's, 70's, 80's. Likewise, I saw a very similar pommel shape to mine on a piece dated ca. 1690. In truth I was hoping for the earlier date, as it fit into the Brethren of the Coast period- , but the facts don't lie.(unless Jasper comes in with a different opinion!) In any case, a time period of 1700-30 still leaves it within the boundaries of the Pirate Golden Age. As you pointed out, the German sword makers were in high demand and their product swept all across Europe. The fact that the general pattern of this sword made it popular in the Low Countries is fine by me. The Dutch, Danes and Swedes were all in the Caribbean by this time (Sweden had their own pirate/privateer flotilla guarding their coast from invasion).Likewise, if we are to attribute this sword to a French association, the French were likewise heavily involved in piracy in the West Indies and other regions at this time frame.

30th March 2019, 05:54 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,158	Wow! That is a match in my book! Even the way his mustache is wedge-shaped seems to match the profile on the blade. Based on Jim's succinct time frame and country of origin, it nicely works out! Thank you Midelburgo and Cap'n Jim for all your help pinning this one down! I'm happy that it still fits the bill for a "Golden Age" piece. Mark