English silverhilted hanger 17thC

M ELEY · 8th March 2019, 03:52 AM

I had thought of the VOC myself, Victrix, in that many of their officers carried high end weapons. Jasper helped me with an old Dutch hanger, pointing to its museum-quality counterparts carried by bigwigs in the Company. Here's the old thread-

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11701

Note again the monster head finials, much like on this silver piece.

M ELEY · 8th March 2019, 04:09 AM

Well, I have fallen into the old pit trap that is 'naval swords prior to 1800', meaning that because there were no restrictions on what one could carry to sea and no actual "m1650 swords" (model types), ANY sword could be a sea sword. This was covered extensively by Annis and May in their monumental work, "Swords for Sea Service", whereby they identified everything from rapiers to cavalry swords with known sea use. This creates the conundrum whereby all we have to go by is what PATTERNS were popular among the naval men (and pirates, consequently). Thus, we do have clear documentation that hangers of this sort did go to sea. As far as specific individuals of fame carrying them, we have the brass 'hunting' hangers being carried by Admirals Benbow and Shovel. But there is nothing really to say that this piece could have been used in a naval setting. Looking through my books, I saw numerous Dutch and English hangers of this type, many in silver, but none identified as 'naval'. However, of the many brass hilts of this same time, the books also didn't list any of them as being naval either. Let's face it, the rules were so loose back then that few weapons for naval use were categorized and recorded as such. The same is true for every potential naval sword all the way up to the beginning of the nineteenth century! It came down to "Well, it has an anchor on the pommel. Must be a sea sword!" Known swords removed from ships or taken in battle are extremely scarce. So, my point is, we may never be sure if this beautiful piece saw service. Some great examples of the silver hilt stag hangers can be seen in Southwick's guide and in the Victoria & Albert Museum collection volume on swords by Norman.

cornelistromp · 8th March 2019, 07:03 AM

yes this is correct.
we could say, if your life depends on it, silver is not the best choice, because of the simple fact that the metal is too soft for a hilt, to catch a blow.
This is why silver hilts often appear on hunting weapons, but hardly on rapiers and sabers.
Btw this does not apply to small swords, however, where silver shells are strong enough to avert a stab. (1650 onwards)

best,
jasper

Jim McDougall · 8th March 2019, 02:21 PM

Well said Mark!
Virtually any type of sword could have ended up in a maritime context in the years before any sort of regulation was in effect, end of the 18th c. primarily. The notion of regulation patterns is a bit difficult, as typically 'regulation' often was simply an official designation of a form already in use and established as a general type which might have variation in degree.

In naval settings, the rank and file of course used 'rack' weapons issued as required. The officers wore swords as an element of rank and status, and were not traditionally expected to 'do battle'. As gentlemen of station, they of course had considerable latitude in the swords they chose to wear. It must be remembered that before cameras, the only depictions of important figures, including naval officers, were portraits, and the fashion as well as weapons were often chosen to reflect status and character.

When turning to the wider scope of maritime context and looking to the merchants including East India companies, as well as their nemesis, the ever lurking pirates and privateers.....the possibilities of any closely set guidelines in weapons in use were virtually unlikely if not impossible.

I remember trying to find out if it was possible that Highland basket hilts were ever used at sea, and that notion further empowered by the compelling notice that Blackbeard was actually dispatched by one, dispelling much of the previous lore about his end. While the actual circumstance was a Highlander among a contingent of local Carolina men enlisted by the famed Lt. Maynard aboard his sloops in the 'chase'......the potential for such a sword even on tight decks seemed more feasible.

The idea of pitched swashbuckling melee aboard vessels is a notion propounded by Hollywood, and fanciful literature. There was not really such sword to sword combat in most cases, and most men in these times and these circumstances were not really fencing or sword combat trained nor experienced. If anything, surrender was gained by intimidation, or use of guns with the dreaded deck clearing langrage as convincing action.

So really, in my view, the use of silver on a hilt, whether on ship or land, was simply a matter of fashion and prestige, with little thought toward potential use in combat. A captain or officers of a vessel might have such swords aboard for dress or diplomatic occasion, as well as a service weapon (often termed 'fighting' sword) worn regularly on duty.

Determining the intent or placement of use of a weapon such as this in naval context is of course purely speculation without sound provenance, and as was suggested to me by the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich in my quest for maritime use of the basket hilt......cannot be 'confirmed nor denied'.

cornelistromp · 8th March 2019, 03:09 PM

a beautiful late 17thC silver hilted hanger made by a London silversmith.
a similar cherub occurs on the pommel cap.

M ELEY · 9th March 2019, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

a beautiful late 17thC silver hilted hanger made by a London silversmith.
a similar cherub occurs on the pommel cap.

That's another beauty, Jasper. The cherub faces always remind me of those found on the Queen Ann cannon barrel pistols also of this era.

Norman McCormick · 8th March 2019, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Determining the intent or placement of use of a weapon such as this in naval context is of course purely speculation without sound provenance, and as was suggested to me by the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich in my quest for maritime use of the basket hilt......cannot be 'confirmed nor denied'.

Hi Jim,
Here may be a contender. https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collec...cts/78642.html
Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 8th March 2019, 07:15 PM

And another.

Norman McCormick · 8th March 2019, 07:17 PM

A couple of silver hilts one with Naval connections.
Regards,
Norman.

M ELEY · 9th March 2019, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Jim,
Here may be a contender. https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collec...cts/78642.html
Regards,
Norman.

Excellent examples, Norman! I'm sure Jim will be thrilled (as was I!) to see that baskethilt with provenance used in naval context. Let us not forget Captain Phillip Broke of the HMS Shannon, who took USS Chesapeake during the War of 1812. His sword was an old family heirloom broadsword refitted with a stirrup hilt guard. When he was badly wounded (thought to be a mortal wound, but he recovered) and being removed from the deck, he called out "Don't forget my trusty sword!" Indeed, in the melee, it would have been nice to have such a formidable weapon!

Jim McDougall · 9th March 2019, 01:54 AM

Roger that!!!My good kinsman Norman brings in the good baskets with salty air!!
Mark, good note on maneuvering into position for battle. It would seem to have been hard enough in waters near land to get close to another ship trying to avoid you.....let alone on high seas.

M ELEY · 9th March 2019, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Well said Mark!
Virtually any type of sword could have ended up in a maritime context in the years before any sort of regulation was in effect, end of the 18th c. primarily. The notion of regulation patterns is a bit difficult, as typically 'regulation' often was simply an official designation of a form already in use and established as a general type which might have variation in degree.

In naval settings, the rank and file of course used 'rack' weapons issued as required. The officers wore swords as an element of rank and status, and were not traditionally expected to 'do battle'. As gentlemen of station, they of course had considerable latitude in the swords they chose to wear. It must be remembered that before cameras, the only depictions of important figures, including naval officers, were portraits, and the fashion as well as weapons were often chosen to reflect status and character.

When turning to the wider scope of maritime context and looking to the merchants including East India companies, as well as their nemesis, the ever lurking pirates and privateers.....the possibilities of any closely set guidelines in weapons in use were virtually unlikely if not impossible.

I remember trying to find out if it was possible that Highland basket hilts were ever used at sea, and that notion further empowered by the compelling notice that Blackbeard was actually dispatched by one, dispelling much of the previous lore about his end. While the actual circumstance was a Highlander among a contingent of local Carolina men enlisted by the famed Lt. Maynard aboard his sloops in the 'chase'......the potential for such a sword even on tight decks seemed more feasible.

The idea of pitched swashbuckling melee aboard vessels is a notion propounded by Hollywood, and fanciful literature. There was not really such sword to sword combat in most cases, and most men in these times and these circumstances were not really fencing or sword combat trained nor experienced. If anything, surrender was gained by intimidation, or use of guns with the dreaded deck clearing langrage as convincing action.

So really, in my view, the use of silver on a hilt, whether on ship or land, was simply a matter of fashion and prestige, with little thought toward potential use in combat. A captain or officers of a vessel might have such swords aboard for dress or diplomatic occasion, as well as a service weapon (often termed 'fighting' sword) worn regularly on duty.

Determining the intent or placement of use of a weapon such as this in naval context is of course purely speculation without sound provenance, and as was suggested to me by the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich in my quest for maritime use of the basket hilt......cannot be 'confirmed nor denied'.

Excellent points, Jim. In particular is your point (one I hadn't thought of) about officers carrying flashy weapons as symbols of rank and not necessarily 'battle-worthy' swords. Case in point, Spanish naval officers often wore small swords as a badge of rank while on deck as well as at formal functions. Hand-to-hand during boarding did occasionally occur, but for the most part, there were hand-picked boarding parties who were rank and file with what they would be armed with, who would lead the charge, etc. In Gilkerson, he showed how there might be pikemen in the front, sailors welding cutlass in the middle and possibly some marines armed with firearms leading up the rear. I would imagine that a captain or officer would have been fitted with several swords, one for dress/rank, one for fighting, etc. In 'Master and Commander', we see Jack Aubrey retrieving his fighting swords from his cabin just before battle (it took, after all, quite a bit of time for two ships to maneuver into battle position, each adversary trying to get the advantage of angle and position).

8th March 2019, 03:09 PM	#5
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	a beautiful late 17thC silver hilted hanger made by a London silversmith. a similar cherub occurs on the pommel cap. Attached Images

8th March 2019, 03:52 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	I had thought of the VOC myself, Victrix, in that many of their officers carried high end weapons. Jasper helped me with an old Dutch hanger, pointing to its museum-quality counterparts carried by bigwigs in the Company. Here's the old thread- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11701 Note again the monster head finials, much like on this silver piece.

8th March 2019, 04:09 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Well, I have fallen into the old pit trap that is 'naval swords prior to 1800', meaning that because there were no restrictions on what one could carry to sea and no actual "m1650 swords" (model types), ANY sword could be a sea sword. This was covered extensively by Annis and May in their monumental work, "Swords for Sea Service", whereby they identified everything from rapiers to cavalry swords with known sea use. This creates the conundrum whereby all we have to go by is what PATTERNS were popular among the naval men (and pirates, consequently). Thus, we do have clear documentation that hangers of this sort did go to sea. As far as specific individuals of fame carrying them, we have the brass 'hunting' hangers being carried by Admirals Benbow and Shovel. But there is nothing really to say that this piece could have been used in a naval setting. Looking through my books, I saw numerous Dutch and English hangers of this type, many in silver, but none identified as 'naval'. However, of the many brass hilts of this same time, the books also didn't list any of them as being naval either. Let's face it, the rules were so loose back then that few weapons for naval use were categorized and recorded as such. The same is true for every potential naval sword all the way up to the beginning of the nineteenth century! It came down to "Well, it has an anchor on the pommel. Must be a sea sword!" Known swords removed from ships or taken in battle are extremely scarce. So, my point is, we may never be sure if this beautiful piece saw service. Some great examples of the silver hilt stag hangers can be seen in Southwick's guide and in the Victoria & Albert Museum collection volume on swords by Norman.

8th March 2019, 07:03 AM	#3
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	yes this is correct. we could say, if your life depends on it, silver is not the best choice, because of the simple fact that the metal is too soft for a hilt, to catch a blow. This is why silver hilts often appear on hunting weapons, but hardly on rapiers and sabers. Btw this does not apply to small swords, however, where silver shells are strong enough to avert a stab. (1650 onwards) best, jasper

8th March 2019, 02:21 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Well said Mark! Virtually any type of sword could have ended up in a maritime context in the years before any sort of regulation was in effect, end of the 18th c. primarily. The notion of regulation patterns is a bit difficult, as typically 'regulation' often was simply an official designation of a form already in use and established as a general type which might have variation in degree. In naval settings, the rank and file of course used 'rack' weapons issued as required. The officers wore swords as an element of rank and status, and were not traditionally expected to 'do battle'. As gentlemen of station, they of course had considerable latitude in the swords they chose to wear. It must be remembered that before cameras, the only depictions of important figures, including naval officers, were portraits, and the fashion as well as weapons were often chosen to reflect status and character. When turning to the wider scope of maritime context and looking to the merchants including East India companies, as well as their nemesis, the ever lurking pirates and privateers.....the possibilities of any closely set guidelines in weapons in use were virtually unlikely if not impossible. I remember trying to find out if it was possible that Highland basket hilts were ever used at sea, and that notion further empowered by the compelling notice that Blackbeard was actually dispatched by one, dispelling much of the previous lore about his end. While the actual circumstance was a Highlander among a contingent of local Carolina men enlisted by the famed Lt. Maynard aboard his sloops in the 'chase'......the potential for such a sword even on tight decks seemed more feasible. The idea of pitched swashbuckling melee aboard vessels is a notion propounded by Hollywood, and fanciful literature. There was not really such sword to sword combat in most cases, and most men in these times and these circumstances were not really fencing or sword combat trained nor experienced. If anything, surrender was gained by intimidation, or use of guns with the dreaded deck clearing langrage as convincing action. So really, in my view, the use of silver on a hilt, whether on ship or land, was simply a matter of fashion and prestige, with little thought toward potential use in combat. A captain or officers of a vessel might have such swords aboard for dress or diplomatic occasion, as well as a service weapon (often termed 'fighting' sword) worn regularly on duty. Determining the intent or placement of use of a weapon such as this in naval context is of course purely speculation without sound provenance, and as was suggested to me by the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich in my quest for maritime use of the basket hilt......cannot be 'confirmed nor denied'.

9th March 2019, 01:54 AM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Roger that!!!My good kinsman Norman brings in the good baskets with salty air!! Mark, good note on maneuvering into position for battle. It would seem to have been hard enough in waters near land to get close to another ship trying to avoid you.....let alone on high seas.