Significance of Beaded Edges/Borders on South Indian Weapons?

ariel · 6th March 2019, 05:03 PM

And more European rapiers, all 15-18 centuries. All have filigrees exactly coincident with Indian locations.
And I am still not sure whether Indian examples are of a parallel development or just imitations of foreign examples. If we can find Indian examples firmly dated to before Vasco da Gama, the latter might be excluded.

Jim McDougall · 6th March 2019, 05:36 PM

Very good points Ariel, one on the matter of methodology in finding support for theories, however I think we all have different ideas and concepts in how we go about it. I know that my own methods don't necessarily coincide with those of others nor follow any precise empirical dictum faithfully.

Well noted as well in that this filigree (beaded) decoration does not need to be firmly associated with any particular Vedic belief or tradition, and may have developed independently within the Indian subcontinent. To determine whether its development was of Indian origin rather than outside influences, finding exemplars pre European contact would be compelling.

However, using this concept may not offer evidence toward conclusion as outside factors such as the 'wild card' of the ever present and often ambiguous element of trade, whether direct or networked, might have influenced such design.

I think this is why Nihl was searching through early architecture, particularly temples and other iconography to discover such pre European presence.

As Bob has well noted, fashion was I think a key factor also, and while this type of decoration is indeed very simple, it is distinct enough to be placed with design in mind and more so than casually. In the manner of how influenced and impressed the Indians were by European arts, that does elevate this design to a status oriented styling.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 6th March 2019, 05:49 PM

It is interesting to see designs unrelated to Indian work and more than 3000 years of Hinduism in that region must be considered first. parallel developments in unrelated tribal groups are not to be confused with linked developments...
I look to two or three areas where designs could drift from one artisan subject to another... and have suggested the field of jewellery..where Hindu style goes back thousands of years... the other area must be in weapons since that is the focus of the thread. the beaded edge is certainly no stranger to Omani weapons in the Omani Khanjar where it is often presented.
back to weapons and please see http://mandarinmansion.com/large-ind...damascus-blade for a beaded hilt which surely echos the threads aim ...

See also a pair of Omani ankle bangles with beaded edges delineating and defining the intended pattern.

Jim McDougall · 6th March 2019, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

It is interesting to see designs unrelated to Indian work and more than 3000 years of Hinduism in that region must be considered first. parallel developments in unrelated tribal groups are not to be confused with linked developments...
I look to two or three areas where designs could drift from one artisan subject to another... and have suggested the field of jewellery..where Hindu style goes back thousands of years... the other area must be in weapons since that is the focus of the thread. the beaded edge is certainly no stranger to Omani weapons in the Omani Khanjar where it is often presented.
back to weapons and please see http://mandarinmansion.com/large-ind...damascus-blade for a beaded hilt which surely echos the threads aim ...

See also a pair of Omani ankle bangles with beaded edges delineating and defining the intended pattern.

Excellent!! Here we have even Omani use of the decoration, and we know there was profound trade through the Red Sea and India via Arab traders. In reading more on beaded decoration, it seems of course that this kind of decoration extends far into prehistory, so it would be hard to confine its origins and use to any one area or cultural sphere.

I think the key objective here is to try to discover if any particular symbolism could be attributed to use of beaded decoration in South India. While it would be extremely unlikely to place such subjective value with confidence, looking into the possibilities is intriguing in better understanding of the culture(s) involved.

Jens Nordlunde · 6th March 2019, 09:48 PM

Jim, are you sure it was only due to Arabian trade?

Jim McDougall · 6th March 2019, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Jim, are you sure it was only due to Arabian trade?

No, surely there were others, but I think of the trade between India's western coasts and the Muscat traders in terms of possible shared influences in decoration as described in Ibrahiims Omani items. It does seem that these trade networks far predated the periods we are discussing, and those details I am not sure of at this point without further research.

ariel · 7th March 2019, 04:14 AM

One can google British filigree, Czech, Ukrainian, Moroccan, Norwegian, Dutch, Japanese, Brazilian etc, etc. My first two examples in post #20 are Ottoman. It was and is everywhere. Everybody either “invented” or borrowed it. One would have hard time trying to prove primacy of South India.

Jim McDougall · 7th March 2019, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

One can google British filigree, Czech, Ukrainian, Moroccan, Norwegian, Dutch, Japanese, Brazilian etc, etc. My first two examples in post #20 are Ottoman. It was and is everywhere. Everybody either “invented” or borrowed it. One would have hard time trying to prove primacy of South India.

I think actually what we are trying determine, as asked in the OP, is if there was any particular significance, representation, symbolism, auspicious connotation or any such connection to examples from South India. It seems somehow we have lost track of that with comparisons elsewhere.

Jens Nordlunde · 8th March 2019, 04:20 PM

The Japamala or Mala is a praying string of beans used by the Hindus, Buddhiists, the Jains and some of the Sikhs.
Mostly there are 108 beans but other numbers can also be seen. The number of 108 is important as it can be devided with 9, and 9 is an important number.
For the rest of the explanation you can Google:-).

Jim McDougall · 8th March 2019, 09:42 PM

Very good point Ibrahiim about use of beaded edges on architecture as its size is of course more conducive to larger decorative components.
Interesting note Jens on the Hindu prayer beads also used in these other faiths. It does seem that beads have religious connotation in most Faiths and may lend to ornamentation in many forms of material culture.

Nihl · 8th March 2019, 11:27 PM

Oh yes good job Ibrahiim on the link with jewelry and armor. Iirc there is an image of a similar vambrace in Elgood's Hindu A&R. Unfortunately I do not have the book with me currently so I am unable to reference exactly where it is. I did take a number of pictures of different figures from the book (the vambrace not being one of them), and in referencing those I was able to find a number of old swords with beaded edges on their hilts that were all dated to the 16th and 17th centuries.

While not to say that this counts as conclusive evidence, in doing a quick google image search of antique Indian jewelry there are numerous examples of pieces with beaded elements - borders and outlines and such. While of course this isn't exactly surprising as rows of precious stones or gilded spheres or what have you all look quite impressive, I think it does provide a bit more evidence towards the idea of it being a naturally evolving aesthetic. This design does also parallel the beaded edges on arms and armor, as both seem to only really be used to provide a border around the outside of the object.

As a side note, the lens that I am personally trying to solve this through is indeed one where these beads are a native invention of sorts and not one copied from foreign examples. Though I certainly don't doubt that there could be some European or other outside influence to it, it just seems to me that such a persistent reoccurring design has to has some sort of native meaning or origin point, even if it is just to make stuff look prettier.

Since I kinda brought it up, I'll look into the correlation between holy numbers and the numbers of "beads" on these objects in my own time, but I think for now establishing when exactly this aesthetic moved onto arms and armor (i.e. finding the earliest dated examples of it) would be the next best thing to do. Currently the earliest examples on swords all seem to date to the 17th century, and only a couple have been dated to the 16th century from what I've seen.

Included are some of the more obvious examples of beaded edges/borders/whatever on Indian jewelry (admittedly not all them are antiques though).

6th March 2019, 05:03 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	And more European rapiers, all 15-18 centuries. All have filigrees exactly coincident with Indian locations. And I am still not sure whether Indian examples are of a parallel development or just imitations of foreign examples. If we can find Indian examples firmly dated to before Vasco da Gama, the latter might be excluded. Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 6th March 2019 at 05:26 PM.

6th March 2019, 05:49 PM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	It is interesting to see designs unrelated to Indian work and more than 3000 years of Hinduism in that region must be considered first. parallel developments in unrelated tribal groups are not to be confused with linked developments... I look to two or three areas where designs could drift from one artisan subject to another... and have suggested the field of jewellery..where Hindu style goes back thousands of years... the other area must be in weapons since that is the focus of the thread. the beaded edge is certainly no stranger to Omani weapons in the Omani Khanjar where it is often presented. back to weapons and please see http://mandarinmansion.com/large-ind...damascus-blade for a beaded hilt which surely echos the threads aim ... See also a pair of Omani ankle bangles with beaded edges delineating and defining the intended pattern. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 6th March 2019 at 06:39 PM.

8th March 2019, 11:27 PM	#11
Nihl Member Join Date: Feb 2018 Posts: 90	Oh yes good job Ibrahiim on the link with jewelry and armor. Iirc there is an image of a similar vambrace in Elgood's Hindu A&R. Unfortunately I do not have the book with me currently so I am unable to reference exactly where it is. I did take a number of pictures of different figures from the book (the vambrace not being one of them), and in referencing those I was able to find a number of old swords with beaded edges on their hilts that were all dated to the 16th and 17th centuries. While not to say that this counts as conclusive evidence, in doing a quick google image search of antique Indian jewelry there are numerous examples of pieces with beaded elements - borders and outlines and such. While of course this isn't exactly surprising as rows of precious stones or gilded spheres or what have you all look quite impressive, I think it does provide a bit more evidence towards the idea of it being a naturally evolving aesthetic. This design does also parallel the beaded edges on arms and armor, as both seem to only really be used to provide a border around the outside of the object. As a side note, the lens that I am personally trying to solve this through is indeed one where these beads are a native invention of sorts and not one copied from foreign examples. Though I certainly don't doubt that there could be some European or other outside influence to it, it just seems to me that such a persistent reoccurring design has to has some sort of native meaning or origin point, even if it is just to make stuff look prettier. Since I kinda brought it up, I'll look into the correlation between holy numbers and the numbers of "beads" on these objects in my own time, but I think for now establishing when exactly this aesthetic moved onto arms and armor (i.e. finding the earliest dated examples of it) would be the next best thing to do. Currently the earliest examples on swords all seem to date to the 17th century, and only a couple have been dated to the 16th century from what I've seen. Included are some of the more obvious examples of beaded edges/borders/whatever on Indian jewelry (admittedly not all them are antiques though). Attached Images

6th March 2019, 05:36 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,195	Very good points Ariel, one on the matter of methodology in finding support for theories, however I think we all have different ideas and concepts in how we go about it. I know that my own methods don't necessarily coincide with those of others nor follow any precise empirical dictum faithfully. Well noted as well in that this filigree (beaded) decoration does not need to be firmly associated with any particular Vedic belief or tradition, and may have developed independently within the Indian subcontinent. To determine whether its development was of Indian origin rather than outside influences, finding exemplars pre European contact would be compelling. However, using this concept may not offer evidence toward conclusion as outside factors such as the 'wild card' of the ever present and often ambiguous element of trade, whether direct or networked, might have influenced such design. I think this is why Nihl was searching through early architecture, particularly temples and other iconography to discover such pre European presence. As Bob has well noted, fashion was I think a key factor also, and while this type of decoration is indeed very simple, it is distinct enough to be placed with design in mind and more so than casually. In the manner of how influenced and impressed the Indians were by European arts, that does elevate this design to a status oriented styling.

6th March 2019, 09:48 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Jim, are you sure it was only due to Arabian trade?

7th March 2019, 04:14 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	One can google British filigree, Czech, Ukrainian, Moroccan, Norwegian, Dutch, Japanese, Brazilian etc, etc. My first two examples in post #20 are Ottoman. It was and is everywhere. Everybody either “invented” or borrowed it. One would have hard time trying to prove primacy of South India.

8th March 2019, 04:20 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	The Japamala or Mala is a praying string of beans used by the Hindus, Buddhiists, the Jains and some of the Sikhs. Mostly there are 108 beans but other numbers can also be seen. The number of 108 is important as it can be devided with 9, and 9 is an important number. For the rest of the explanation you can Google:-).

8th March 2019, 09:42 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,195	Very good point Ibrahiim about use of beaded edges on architecture as its size is of course more conducive to larger decorative components. Interesting note Jens on the Hindu prayer beads also used in these other faiths. It does seem that beads have religious connotation in most Faiths and may lend to ornamentation in many forms of material culture.