English silverhilted hanger 17thC

cornelistromp · 6th March 2019, 10:45 AM

this type of hangers were not necessarily worn during the hunt but often in civilian outfit.
that it is purely English does not really bother me,... it is a beautiful stranger

best,
Jasper

M ELEY · 6th March 2019, 11:23 AM

Truly so, Jasper, a beautiful piece! As Jim indicated, it very well might have seen sea service, as many officers at the time carried fine hangers such as this. Brass and silver hilts were supplanting the earlier iron hilts, as they were resistant to salty air and rust. The sea monster head/dog head quillon on yours is so reminiscent of the so called 'dog head' English naval cutlasses of the same period, themselves resembling the kastane.

cornelistromp · 6th March 2019, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Truly so, Jasper, a beautiful piece! As Jim indicated, it very well might have seen sea service, as many officers at the time carried fine hangers such as this. Brass and silver hilts were supplanting the earlier iron hilts, as they were resistant to salty air and rust. The sea monster head/dog head quillon on yours is so reminiscent of the so called 'dog head' English naval cutlasses of the same period, themselves resembling the kastane.

do you have some kind proof for a silver sea service hanger?
your hanger picture is the type of hanger of a famous Dutch guy, Michiel de Ruyter.
Iam still looking for good example of this type.

best,

M ELEY · 6th March 2019, 09:59 PM

I will hit my books, but you are right that I can't say for sure that there were silver 'naval' hangers. I do know that silver was replacing the the early (1640's-50's) English iron hangers that did frequently go to sea. The brass hangers are well documented naval pieces. Just have to do some research to see if I can find examples...

Victrix · 6th March 2019, 10:48 PM

I read somewhere that sabres with silvered hilts would be carried by hussars working as guards for private estates and castles in Hungary in the 18thC. Brass/gilded hilts were reserved for use by the Crown. Could then silver hilt hangers have been worn by officers in the Honourable East India Company and other private groups? Just a thought.

M ELEY · 8th March 2019, 03:52 AM

I had thought of the VOC myself, Victrix, in that many of their officers carried high end weapons. Jasper helped me with an old Dutch hanger, pointing to its museum-quality counterparts carried by bigwigs in the Company. Here's the old thread-

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11701

Note again the monster head finials, much like on this silver piece.

M ELEY · 8th March 2019, 04:09 AM

Well, I have fallen into the old pit trap that is 'naval swords prior to 1800', meaning that because there were no restrictions on what one could carry to sea and no actual "m1650 swords" (model types), ANY sword could be a sea sword. This was covered extensively by Annis and May in their monumental work, "Swords for Sea Service", whereby they identified everything from rapiers to cavalry swords with known sea use. This creates the conundrum whereby all we have to go by is what PATTERNS were popular among the naval men (and pirates, consequently). Thus, we do have clear documentation that hangers of this sort did go to sea. As far as specific individuals of fame carrying them, we have the brass 'hunting' hangers being carried by Admirals Benbow and Shovel. But there is nothing really to say that this piece could have been used in a naval setting. Looking through my books, I saw numerous Dutch and English hangers of this type, many in silver, but none identified as 'naval'. However, of the many brass hilts of this same time, the books also didn't list any of them as being naval either. Let's face it, the rules were so loose back then that few weapons for naval use were categorized and recorded as such. The same is true for every potential naval sword all the way up to the beginning of the nineteenth century! It came down to "Well, it has an anchor on the pommel. Must be a sea sword!" Known swords removed from ships or taken in battle are extremely scarce. So, my point is, we may never be sure if this beautiful piece saw service. Some great examples of the silver hilt stag hangers can be seen in Southwick's guide and in the Victoria & Albert Museum collection volume on swords by Norman.

6th March 2019, 11:23 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Truly so, Jasper, a beautiful piece! As Jim indicated, it very well might have seen sea service, as many officers at the time carried fine hangers such as this. Brass and silver hilts were supplanting the earlier iron hilts, as they were resistant to salty air and rust. The sea monster head/dog head quillon on yours is so reminiscent of the so called 'dog head' English naval cutlasses of the same period, themselves resembling the kastane. Attached Images

6th March 2019, 10:45 AM	#1
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	this type of hangers were not necessarily worn during the hunt but often in civilian outfit. that it is purely English does not really bother me,... it is a beautiful stranger best, Jasper

6th March 2019, 09:59 PM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	I will hit my books, but you are right that I can't say for sure that there were silver 'naval' hangers. I do know that silver was replacing the the early (1640's-50's) English iron hangers that did frequently go to sea. The brass hangers are well documented naval pieces. Just have to do some research to see if I can find examples...

6th March 2019, 10:48 PM	#5
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	I read somewhere that sabres with silvered hilts would be carried by hussars working as guards for private estates and castles in Hungary in the 18thC. Brass/gilded hilts were reserved for use by the Crown. Could then silver hilt hangers have been worn by officers in the Honourable East India Company and other private groups? Just a thought.

8th March 2019, 03:52 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	I had thought of the VOC myself, Victrix, in that many of their officers carried high end weapons. Jasper helped me with an old Dutch hanger, pointing to its museum-quality counterparts carried by bigwigs in the Company. Here's the old thread- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11701 Note again the monster head finials, much like on this silver piece.

8th March 2019, 04:09 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Well, I have fallen into the old pit trap that is 'naval swords prior to 1800', meaning that because there were no restrictions on what one could carry to sea and no actual "m1650 swords" (model types), ANY sword could be a sea sword. This was covered extensively by Annis and May in their monumental work, "Swords for Sea Service", whereby they identified everything from rapiers to cavalry swords with known sea use. This creates the conundrum whereby all we have to go by is what PATTERNS were popular among the naval men (and pirates, consequently). Thus, we do have clear documentation that hangers of this sort did go to sea. As far as specific individuals of fame carrying them, we have the brass 'hunting' hangers being carried by Admirals Benbow and Shovel. But there is nothing really to say that this piece could have been used in a naval setting. Looking through my books, I saw numerous Dutch and English hangers of this type, many in silver, but none identified as 'naval'. However, of the many brass hilts of this same time, the books also didn't list any of them as being naval either. Let's face it, the rules were so loose back then that few weapons for naval use were categorized and recorded as such. The same is true for every potential naval sword all the way up to the beginning of the nineteenth century! It came down to "Well, it has an anchor on the pommel. Must be a sea sword!" Known swords removed from ships or taken in battle are extremely scarce. So, my point is, we may never be sure if this beautiful piece saw service. Some great examples of the silver hilt stag hangers can be seen in Southwick's guide and in the Victoria & Albert Museum collection volume on swords by Norman.