Flint pistol - Nationality?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by corrado26

... Why do you think this is a fake rifling? ...

The darkness of the picture doesn't let us check the barrel interior but, James is in a better condition to see that there is no rifling continuity inside.
Just like in the pistol that Fernando K has linked, that 'crenelation' in the muzzle is only a fantasy.
Besides, if actual rifling would have its grooves carved so deep, the barrel wall thickness would become critical.
Am i correct ?



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[corrado26]

Originally Posted by fernando

Besides, if actual rifling would have its grooves carved so deep, the barrel wall thickness would become critical.
Am i correct ?



.

There are lots of military guns - not rifles - with a rather thin wall thickness. These have mostly been fusilier-guns which could be loaded either quickly with a simple roll bullet or if there was a liitle more time with a plaster(?) bullet which has been more precise. As the wall thickness of the barrels normaly increases from the muzzle to the end there never have been problems because of the powder pressure especially since this pressure decreases on its way to the muzzle.
Rifling onlyt at the muzzle is mostly to be found at pistols with unscrewable barrels to put in a fitting key in order to turn off the barrel. At a pistol with a fixed barrel such grooves make no sense at all.
corrado26

[fernando]

Originally Posted by corrado26

...There are lots of military guns - not rifles - with a rather thin wall thickness...

Maybe not that thin, i would say .

Originally Posted by corrado26

... Rifling only at the muzzle is mostly to be found at pistols with "unscrewable" barrels to put in a fitting key in order to turn off the barrel.

You mean "screwable", Udo; yes, but not with so many dents, that i know of ... and with a different configuration .

Definitely James can tell us why he called it fake.


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[corrado26]

Ok, my mistake, screwable is the expression.

Here is a pistol of my collection made by Andreas Erttel gunmaker to the court of Saxony with a rifled barrel. The twisted grooves go down the barrel until the powder chamber and as you can see the thickness of the barrel's wall is not that much though there is a muzzle ring that increases the thickness remarkably.
corrado26

[Pukka Bundook]

I agree with Corrado that the pistol in the opening post appears to have an Italian fluted barrel. This does not mean the pistol Is Italian, as this type of barrel was used over Europe and the UK.

In Corrado's post above, he shows a pistol with a turn-off barrel. This is a very different thing, as the barrel was unscrewed for loading. In the pistol in the opening post, the muzzle decoration is just that, decoration.
It is a nice pistol, and I would have Guessed Italian, or Germanic or somewhere between the two!

Very best wishes,
Richard.
Corrado,
I was presuming when I wrote the above, that your pistol used the rifling at the muzzle to take a spanner for turning off the barrel.
Is this so?...Or, is there a lug on the barrel we can not see in the photos, that a wrench fits over? (This would be just in front of the stock towards the breech of the barrel.)

[corrado26]

That's an error, the barrel does not turn off! And as I wrote before, the grooves are twisted what would not make any sense if these grooves would have been just for a key.

[Pukka Bundook]

Dear Corrado,

I do not mind being in error, as I always wish to learn.
After I posted my reply above, I noticed that your pistol was rifled all the way, and not merely made to take a key in the muzzle. Please see my edited post above.
It seems unusual to me, to not have a barrel that unscrews, as the stock being made short, is Usually made this way so the barrel Can unscrew.
I do not pretend to know more about your pistol than you do, but it Is most unusual!

Thank you for correcting me!

Very best wishes,
Richard.

Edited again to attach a photo of a little pistol I have, with stock very similar to yours, and the tab for unscrewing the barrel to load.
This is how I Presumed your pistol was meant to work. Thank you again for putting me right!

[corrado26]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Corrado,
I was presuming when I wrote the above, that your pistol used the rifling at the muzzle to take a spanner for turning off the barrel.
Is this so?...Or, is there a lug on the barrel we can not see in the photos, that a wrench fits over? (This would be just in front of the stock towards the breech of the barrel.)

Dear Pukka Bandook,

sorry no, the barrel of my pistol has no lug to set a wrench, but you are right, it is very unusual that there is such a short stock. But in the collection of the Ruestkammer at Dresden there is a very similar pair also made by Erttel with the same stocks and barrels.
Regards
corrado26

[fernando]

The popularization of barrel rifling brough a great advantage; while in the smooth bore one has to load a bullet with a diameter sligthly narrower than the barrel interior, such gap called “windage”, in which pressure gases are wasted, reducing the accuracy and effective range (distance) of the shot, with the rifling one loads a bullet slightly larger than the barrel bore, reducing the gases escape, thus increasing accuracy and effective range performance.
One handicap with the (muzzle loading) rifling system is that it takes a “lot” more time to load, as the bullet doesn’t ‘fall’ into the barrel, having instead to be thoroughly & firmly rammed with the rod. Such difference in loading cadence was well noted during the Peninsular War, where the first Riflemen appeared with the Baker gun.
With the turn off barrel this brought a distinct procedure as, the wider bullet was placed right in the chamber, the gunpowder being poured directly in place, thus its portion more rationalized, the result being optimum. We call this system "forced bullet" in my neck of the woods.
I gather that these barrels may not need to be so long, due to achieved performance with such system, but longer ones may also be seen.
(Photos courtesy John W. Burgoyne)

Am i talking nonsense ?


,

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by corrado26

There are lots of military guns - not rifles - with a rather thin wall thickness. These have mostly been fusilier-guns which could be loaded either quickly with a simple roll bullet or if there was a liitle more time with a plaster(?) bullet which has been more precise. As the wall thickness of the barrels normaly increases from the muzzle to the end there never have been problems because of the powder pressure especially since this pressure decreases on its way to the muzzle.
Rifling onlyt at the muzzle is mostly to be found at pistols with unscrewable barrels to put in a fitting key in order to turn off the barrel. At a pistol with a fixed barrel such grooves make no sense at all.
corrado26

Thank you so much for this fascinating insight Corrado!!!!!

As someone wo has always studied edged weapons, it is amazing to learn more on the dynamics of these firearms.Your explanations are well worded so that a lay person in this field such as myself can easily follow.