EUROPEAN BLADE PRE 1800 FOR ID

Victrix · 11th February 2019, 10:17 PM

Hi Willem,

I’m sorry we can not be of more help. It would be useful to be able to view the engraving.

There could be a general Dutch colonial connection with the blade. Then there could be an Arabian connection (through Islam) where the blade could have been captured/sold from Hungary or marketed as a Hungarian ”trophy” blade to Arabic buyers (e.g. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=hungaria). Damascene blades were not common in Europe so that also makes it unusual. The blade would then have found it’s way to Indonesia and recycled with local mount. An object with an Arabian connection/origin would probably be highly esteemed in Indonesia for cultural reasons.

In his book Wagner (1969, 2nd ed.) mentions the hussar blade discussed above as ”The blade is curved, 92cm long, hollowed out on both sides. It has two grooves of unequal length...” The width is said to be 3.5cm.Perhaps erosion on your blade made the grooves of equal length? Perhaps frequent sharpening made the tip more pointed? Or perhaps the blade was so customized to individual taste for an officer?

Jim McDougall · 12th February 2019, 05:41 PM

I am always curious when I see the term 'damascus' describing a blade. In my very limited understanding of metallurgy, my impression is that the term has been loosely applied to various forms of 'watered steel' and was gauged by carbonization degree in forging. The effects gave various rippled effects resembling water and this steel was produced in India and Sri Lanka (termed wootz).
As far as I have known, this process of steel making was not known in Europe though some forms of design in the blade resulted from pattern welding. I think Russia later formed a simulated 'damascus' termed 'bulat'.

The thing is that the blade on this example displays what appear to be acid etched motifs (often seen on officers swords of course) . I don't believe that the designs or effects of 'watered steel' would be covered over with acid etched motif.....at least that would be my impression.

The Austro-Hungarian blades from cavalry sabres were among the favored types brought into Arabian entrepots and were termed 'Majar' , presumably from Magyar (= the ethnic group in Hungary). With the prolific trade of the Arabs, it would not be hard to imagine these blades, as noted, bundled with others in the routes which connected to Indonesian/Malaysian regions.
These regions are notably populated by those of Muslim Faith, and as such, there was certainly the ever present travel of Pilgrims to Mecca in their Hadj. Typically in these travels these Pilgrims often carried items to trade and sell to pay for their passage. Various weapons have diffused widely in this manner.

As this blade is well worn, it is known that in Bedouin use, blades were often polished and worked, so a 'Majar' that had been in this context for even a relatively short time would have had this motif well worn . I think it is more likely this scenario may have been the case here. While the Dutch indeed used Solingen made blades, this blade has more the character of the Styrian types well known in Austro-Hungary in 18th-19th c. and likely ended up in Bedouin context as a 'Majar'. From there is may have been acquired by a person on Hadj and taken back to Indonesian area, thus the cultural circumstance which Victrix has well noted.

11th February 2019, 10:17 PM	#1
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Hi Willem, I’m sorry we can not be of more help. It would be useful to be able to view the engraving. There could be a general Dutch colonial connection with the blade. Then there could be an Arabian connection (through Islam) where the blade could have been captured/sold from Hungary or marketed as a Hungarian ”trophy” blade to Arabic buyers (e.g. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=hungaria). Damascene blades were not common in Europe so that also makes it unusual. The blade would then have found it’s way to Indonesia and recycled with local mount. An object with an Arabian connection/origin would probably be highly esteemed in Indonesia for cultural reasons. In his book Wagner (1969, 2nd ed.) mentions the hussar blade discussed above as ”The blade is curved, 92cm long, hollowed out on both sides. It has two grooves of unequal length...” The width is said to be 3.5cm.Perhaps erosion on your blade made the grooves of equal length? Perhaps frequent sharpening made the tip more pointed? Or perhaps the blade was so customized to individual taste for an officer?

12th February 2019, 05:41 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	I am always curious when I see the term 'damascus' describing a blade. In my very limited understanding of metallurgy, my impression is that the term has been loosely applied to various forms of 'watered steel' and was gauged by carbonization degree in forging. The effects gave various rippled effects resembling water and this steel was produced in India and Sri Lanka (termed wootz). As far as I have known, this process of steel making was not known in Europe though some forms of design in the blade resulted from pattern welding. I think Russia later formed a simulated 'damascus' termed 'bulat'. The thing is that the blade on this example displays what appear to be acid etched motifs (often seen on officers swords of course) . I don't believe that the designs or effects of 'watered steel' would be covered over with acid etched motif.....at least that would be my impression. The Austro-Hungarian blades from cavalry sabres were among the favored types brought into Arabian entrepots and were termed 'Majar' , presumably from Magyar (= the ethnic group in Hungary). With the prolific trade of the Arabs, it would not be hard to imagine these blades, as noted, bundled with others in the routes which connected to Indonesian/Malaysian regions. These regions are notably populated by those of Muslim Faith, and as such, there was certainly the ever present travel of Pilgrims to Mecca in their Hadj. Typically in these travels these Pilgrims often carried items to trade and sell to pay for their passage. Various weapons have diffused widely in this manner. As this blade is well worn, it is known that in Bedouin use, blades were often polished and worked, so a 'Majar' that had been in this context for even a relatively short time would have had this motif well worn . I think it is more likely this scenario may have been the case here. While the Dutch indeed used Solingen made blades, this blade has more the character of the Styrian types well known in Austro-Hungary in 18th-19th c. and likely ended up in Bedouin context as a 'Majar'. From there is may have been acquired by a person on Hadj and taken back to Indonesian area, thus the cultural circumstance which Victrix has well noted.