Ancient Zealot daggers

ariel · 16th April 2006, 05:04 AM

In American prison parlance it would be called a Shiv.

Jim McDougall · 16th April 2006, 04:17 PM

Ahah Ariel!!! Good one! Its been a while since I heard that term......not from personal experience mind you

!!!!
Now my curiosity goes again....where does the 'shiv' term come from?

Best regards,
Jim

fernando · 18th April 2006, 11:58 PM

there you are
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiv_%28weapon%29

fearn · 19th April 2006, 05:19 AM

This is a great discussion. One point I'm not convinced on, though, is that a sica was a strongly defined type of blade. We could be dealing something similar to the English "knife" or the Chinese/Burmese/etc. "dao," where the term is loosely defined, but (as always) everyone in the culture knows what one looks like.

I'm guessing that we can add "sica" to this group of general blade terms. This contrasts with terms like "gladius," which seems to be a strongly defined, two-edged military short sword used by the infantry.

"Sicarius" makes sense as a category, too. After all, in English we have gunmen, hatchetmen, hired knives, etc. The term "Sicarius" seems to belong to the same category. Terms like hatchetman are a bit different from, say, swordsman or gladiator, after all.

My 0.02 denarii,

Fearn

fernando · 20th April 2006, 03:38 PM

Hi Fearn
Quite Right.
It is all about a generic, with a prevailing necessity for an adding term or context, to make the difference, both in form, purpose and conotation.
One can follow the source of the modern english Sickle, ex-midlle english Sikel, ex-old english Sicol; it derives from latin Sêcula (vulgar Sicila), as Secãre for cutting. Therefore a term of generic base, like calling it a cutter, reason why Plinius used a two word term to refer the intended object by its shape : Dentium Sicas, as it resembled a tooth ( of an hippo ... ).
Passing by Jewish lands, one could admit that the sica for them was a usefull roman generic handy dagger, with no need for a more precise name. The conotation given by romans ( Flavius Josephus ) and others, to perjorate on the guys that used daggers on a massive subversive sense, doesn't apply for the shape or conotation of the piece per se.
Then you get to Rome, when they needed to call a name to the dagger brought by the Thracians; again a double word term: Sica Supina, from supination, a sort of laying bent posture. However Juvenal's double word atribution to this Thracian ( and Dacian ) specific weapon , was twice meaningfull: Falx Supina ... Falx (Falce) being a determined anatomical form , like one in the brains.
Then i eventually pick the term used in (latin tongued) Portugal for Sickle, and the term is Foice, from prior Fouce, obviously the Falx derivation; here intended as a farming tool. When used as a weapon, in medieval times, attached to a long shaft, it had no precise names as popular as simply Fouce ( Sickle), only distinguished by the context. Amazingly the local farmers verb for reaping with the sickle is Segar, as in latin Secãre= cutting with Sica.
In a certain manner it is all entangled, like if languages are globalized for already long time.
Sorry for all the nonsense.
fernando

fearn · 20th April 2006, 06:23 PM

Hi Fernando,

That makes sense to me. I like your derivation of sickle, BTW.

One note about the falx--it's a tool too. Long handled, curved-bladed choppers were used for coppicing oaks and other trees certainly by Medieval times, and probably back into the Bronze Age (coppicing is an *old* art in Europe). The English brown bill is similar to the falx, and both are similar to the "bank blades" one can buy at a modern hardware store. All of these blades were more popular when coppicing was a major rural industry, and before pruning shears became popular. You can still find them around, for use in clearing brush. In fact, one of them is shown in May's National Geographic, where it's being using by the Inupiat to cut up a bowhead whale. But I digress...

After wandering through that linguistic thicket, it's interesting that so many cultures have some broadly defined term(s) for work cutters (i.e. knife, dao, parang, etc), sometimes weaponized (i.e. combat knife), and specific terms for weapon blades that have little utilitarian use (i.e. longsword, jian, katana, gladius, etc). Probably there's a basic bit of human psychology in there.

F

fernando · 20th April 2006, 08:12 PM

Hi Fearn
About the falx, maybe i didn't express as i wished. Naturally the falx=fouce is basicaly a tool, later "improved" for weaponry. The anatomy aproach was because i couldn't yet figure out whether was the so called brain structure shape that gave the name to the tool, or vice versa.
About people's broad or keen definition of either tools/weapons and objective weapons, i was considering that, in old days, the tools were the optional ( available ) weapons, therefore the little existance of old weapons names based on their unique lethal purpose like, as you remind, the Gladius adopted by Romans.
fernando
By the way
http://psychcentral.com/psypsych/Dagger

16th April 2006, 05:04 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	In American prison parlance it would be called a Shiv.

16th April 2006, 04:17 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Ahah Ariel!!! Good one! Its been a while since I heard that term......not from personal experience mind you !!!! Now my curiosity goes again....where does the 'shiv' term come from? Best regards, Jim

18th April 2006, 11:58 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	there you are http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiv_%28weapon%29

19th April 2006, 05:19 AM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	This is a great discussion. One point I'm not convinced on, though, is that a sica was a strongly defined type of blade. We could be dealing something similar to the English "knife" or the Chinese/Burmese/etc. "dao," where the term is loosely defined, but (as always) everyone in the culture knows what one looks like. I'm guessing that we can add "sica" to this group of general blade terms. This contrasts with terms like "gladius," which seems to be a strongly defined, two-edged military short sword used by the infantry. "Sicarius" makes sense as a category, too. After all, in English we have gunmen, hatchetmen, hired knives, etc. The term "Sicarius" seems to belong to the same category. Terms like hatchetman are a bit different from, say, swordsman or gladiator, after all. My 0.02 denarii, Fearn

20th April 2006, 03:38 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Fearn Quite Right. It is all about a generic, with a prevailing necessity for an adding term or context, to make the difference, both in form, purpose and conotation. One can follow the source of the modern english Sickle, ex-midlle english Sikel, ex-old english Sicol; it derives from latin Sêcula (vulgar Sicila), as Secãre for cutting. Therefore a term of generic base, like calling it a cutter, reason why Plinius used a two word term to refer the intended object by its shape : Dentium Sicas, as it resembled a tooth ( of an hippo ... ). Passing by Jewish lands, one could admit that the sica for them was a usefull roman generic handy dagger, with no need for a more precise name. The conotation given by romans ( Flavius Josephus ) and others, to perjorate on the guys that used daggers on a massive subversive sense, doesn't apply for the shape or conotation of the piece per se. Then you get to Rome, when they needed to call a name to the dagger brought by the Thracians; again a double word term: Sica Supina, from supination, a sort of laying bent posture. However Juvenal's double word atribution to this Thracian ( and Dacian ) specific weapon , was twice meaningfull: Falx Supina ... Falx (Falce) being a determined anatomical form , like one in the brains. Then i eventually pick the term used in (latin tongued) Portugal for Sickle, and the term is Foice, from prior Fouce, obviously the Falx derivation; here intended as a farming tool. When used as a weapon, in medieval times, attached to a long shaft, it had no precise names as popular as simply Fouce ( Sickle), only distinguished by the context. Amazingly the local farmers verb for reaping with the sickle is Segar, as in latin Secãre= cutting with Sica. In a certain manner it is all entangled, like if languages are globalized for already long time. Sorry for all the nonsense. fernando

20th April 2006, 06:23 PM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Fernando, That makes sense to me. I like your derivation of sickle, BTW. One note about the falx--it's a tool too. Long handled, curved-bladed choppers were used for coppicing oaks and other trees certainly by Medieval times, and probably back into the Bronze Age (coppicing is an old art in Europe). The English brown bill is similar to the falx, and both are similar to the "bank blades" one can buy at a modern hardware store. All of these blades were more popular when coppicing was a major rural industry, and before pruning shears became popular. You can still find them around, for use in clearing brush. In fact, one of them is shown in May's National Geographic, where it's being using by the Inupiat to cut up a bowhead whale. But I digress... After wandering through that linguistic thicket, it's interesting that so many cultures have some broadly defined term(s) for work cutters (i.e. knife, dao, parang, etc), sometimes weaponized (i.e. combat knife), and specific terms for weapon blades that have little utilitarian use (i.e. longsword, jian, katana, gladius, etc). Probably there's a basic bit of human psychology in there. F

20th April 2006, 08:12 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Fearn About the falx, maybe i didn't express as i wished. Naturally the falx=fouce is basicaly a tool, later "improved" for weaponry. The anatomy aproach was because i couldn't yet figure out whether was the so called brain structure shape that gave the name to the tool, or vice versa. About people's broad or keen definition of either tools/weapons and objective weapons, i was considering that, in old days, the tools were the optional ( available ) weapons, therefore the little existance of old weapons names based on their unique lethal purpose like, as you remind, the Gladius adopted by Romans. fernando By the way http://psychcentral.com/psypsych/Dagger