Valuable sticks

ariel · 15th April 2006, 11:22 PM

If these sticks are so valuable, either the Kenyans or the British ( or both) are welcome to my backyard; we have 2 old trees to chop down and the contestants can have all the branches they want.

Jim McDougall · 17th April 2006, 12:18 AM

Hi Tim,
I wanted to thank you for sharing this very interesting article! For many years I have nearly obsessively pored through at least 3-4 newspapers a day looking for this type of news items. I always date and file them in the ever growing archives here (nearing dangerous cave in proportions

!!

It seems that the tribal staffs and clubs often used by shaman and by chieftains in Africa were characteristically held as imbued with considerable ethereal properties. Much as what we are discussing in your concurrent thread on the use of copper in material culture and weapons, the same magical and amuletic properies held inherent in certain rocks,gems and metals are typically applied to various woods and botanicals. The fact that a certain item, such as a staff or club was used by important tribal figures simply elevated the already revered items to even higher dimensions.

The types of wood chosen for certain weapons it would seem, may have been for talismanic value as well as practical value, I believe there are a number of weapons that may have even been named for the wood used.

Thank you again for sharing this article!!!

All best regards,
Jim

yuanzhumin · 17th April 2006, 03:28 PM

Hi Tim
Thank you for this very rare and nice story.
The return of the stolen objects during the colonization times is really an important topic.
I was discussing it just few days ago with the curator of one of the main museum of primitive art in France that is visiting here. He agreed himself that there is no interest to keep that many objects in the western museums when, in the countries where these artifacts are coming from, the museums have often so little to show.
The return is something to think about mostly when we know that the museums in the western hemisphere show around 5% of their collections average, the rest being stored in wharehouses or underground where they are not always properly taken care of because of budget restrictions.
In the case of Taiwan, no western colonisation, but japanese one from 1895 to 1945. When they arrived in the island, they were the first to show interest in the aboriginal people. I f they sent ethnologists in the tribes, it was in order to learn about them for scientifical purpose but also in order to better colonise them. While the French were sending missionaries first before the soldiers, the Japanese were sending ethnologists.
They collected the first objects from these territories considered as terra incognita till their arrival and where nobody was daring to go as the head hunters were everywhere.
Step by step, they accumulated a lot of knowledge and objects from these tribes. At the same time, they submitted them to their laws.
Except what the Japanese had brought before the end of the 2nd world war to their country, before being expelled from Taiwan by the Americans and Chiang Kai-chek, the rest of the objects remained in the taiwanese museums. There are today around 12 000 aboriginal objects in the public museums here. But it's true also that a bigger number, with the oldest pieces, is still in Japan.
Thanks again for the article, Tim.
Best,
yuanzhumin

katana · 17th April 2006, 05:10 PM

Very interesting article Tim,
it seems that the perception of an article's worth is often gauged by its monetary value in today's society. The Holy Grail, of legend, was often described as being made of precious metal and gem stones, this, presumably to enhance the significance of such a religious icon. In reality the grail, the supposed drinking vessel used at the last supper would have been much, much more modest. ( I also appreciate the grail, is also believed to be symbolic of the 'wife' of Jesus..... but that’s another story.)
My simplified, generalised point is this, our modern, westernised views of what qualities objects are revered for, has changed to a more materialistic stance away from our ancestor's more spiritual view. (Unfortunately

)

Having said that, there is a piece of cloth, that has been visited by hundreds of thousands of people; is held, by those who believe, to be one of greatest Christian religious relics...... the Turin shroud, in essence .....a linen sheet.............now about those 'sticks' ?!!?

ariel · 17th April 2006, 07:10 PM

It is an interesting discussion and it begs a question: who should be the rightful owner of an antique object?
I cannot accept the idea that antique objects of art (or culture) belong exclusively to the ethic tribe of the creator. If one wants to insist upon this rule, then all Rembrandts should be returned to the Netherlands. I bet that 99.99999% of our collections "rightfully belong" to somebody else.
There is an unfortunate tendency to counterpose "Western society" with the rest of the world ( the former being greedy, materialistic and imperialistic whereas the latter being uniformly labelled as spiritual, environmetally sensitive and possessing deep wisdom).
Balderdash! Any society curious enogh about other cultures and rich/powerful enough to acqure artefacts , did it with gusto! Turkish museums are filled with European trophies including the sword of Stefan cel Mare . The Russian Tsars built the Hermitage for their acquisitions, and our Nihon-to colleagues salivate at night over their Koto katanas taken to the US by veterans of WWII. Japanese, in exchange, buy Van Goghs. Taiwanese museums are filled with the goods from China taken there by Chang Kai-shek (those that were not, were destroyed during the Cultural Revolution by Mao's goons).
Objects of art from any culture were sold, re-sold, taken af war trophies, stolen and found innumerable times over the centuries. Our only hope to see them preserved 1000 years from now is to place them in professional museums, not to surrender them to their tribal shamans. Had it not been for the Western museums, most ethnographic artefacts would have beed destroyed, lost and damaged by the elements in their natural habitats.
These Kenyan sticks would have rotted long ago had they stayed with the tribal witch doctors.
If a creator society wants, they can borrow the artifacts from other museums. But the idea that all Nigerian swords belong to Lagos, all Michelangelos to Rome, all Russian icons to Moscow and all statues of Buddha to Bangkok strikes me as absurd.

15th April 2006, 11:22 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	If these sticks are so valuable, either the Kenyans or the British ( or both) are welcome to my backyard; we have 2 old trees to chop down and the contestants can have all the branches they want.

17th April 2006, 12:18 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Hi Tim, I wanted to thank you for sharing this very interesting article! For many years I have nearly obsessively pored through at least 3-4 newspapers a day looking for this type of news items. I always date and file them in the ever growing archives here (nearing dangerous cave in proportions !! It seems that the tribal staffs and clubs often used by shaman and by chieftains in Africa were characteristically held as imbued with considerable ethereal properties. Much as what we are discussing in your concurrent thread on the use of copper in material culture and weapons, the same magical and amuletic properies held inherent in certain rocks,gems and metals are typically applied to various woods and botanicals. The fact that a certain item, such as a staff or club was used by important tribal figures simply elevated the already revered items to even higher dimensions. The types of wood chosen for certain weapons it would seem, may have been for talismanic value as well as practical value, I believe there are a number of weapons that may have even been named for the wood used. Thank you again for sharing this article!!! All best regards, Jim

17th April 2006, 03:28 PM	#3
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	Hi Tim Thank you for this very rare and nice story. The return of the stolen objects during the colonization times is really an important topic. I was discussing it just few days ago with the curator of one of the main museum of primitive art in France that is visiting here. He agreed himself that there is no interest to keep that many objects in the western museums when, in the countries where these artifacts are coming from, the museums have often so little to show. The return is something to think about mostly when we know that the museums in the western hemisphere show around 5% of their collections average, the rest being stored in wharehouses or underground where they are not always properly taken care of because of budget restrictions. In the case of Taiwan, no western colonisation, but japanese one from 1895 to 1945. When they arrived in the island, they were the first to show interest in the aboriginal people. I f they sent ethnologists in the tribes, it was in order to learn about them for scientifical purpose but also in order to better colonise them. While the French were sending missionaries first before the soldiers, the Japanese were sending ethnologists. They collected the first objects from these territories considered as terra incognita till their arrival and where nobody was daring to go as the head hunters were everywhere. Step by step, they accumulated a lot of knowledge and objects from these tribes. At the same time, they submitted them to their laws. Except what the Japanese had brought before the end of the 2nd world war to their country, before being expelled from Taiwan by the Americans and Chiang Kai-chek, the rest of the objects remained in the taiwanese museums. There are today around 12 000 aboriginal objects in the public museums here. But it's true also that a bigger number, with the oldest pieces, is still in Japan. Thanks again for the article, Tim. Best, yuanzhumin

17th April 2006, 05:10 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Very interesting article Tim, it seems that the perception of an article's worth is often gauged by its monetary value in today's society. The Holy Grail, of legend, was often described as being made of precious metal and gem stones, this, presumably to enhance the significance of such a religious icon. In reality the grail, the supposed drinking vessel used at the last supper would have been much, much more modest. ( I also appreciate the grail, is also believed to be symbolic of the 'wife' of Jesus..... but that’s another story.) My simplified, generalised point is this, our modern, westernised views of what qualities objects are revered for, has changed to a more materialistic stance away from our ancestor's more spiritual view. (Unfortunately ) Having said that, there is a piece of cloth, that has been visited by hundreds of thousands of people; is held, by those who believe, to be one of greatest Christian religious relics...... the Turin shroud, in essence .....a linen sheet.............now about those 'sticks' ?!!?

17th April 2006, 07:10 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	It is an interesting discussion and it begs a question: who should be the rightful owner of an antique object? I cannot accept the idea that antique objects of art (or culture) belong exclusively to the ethic tribe of the creator. If one wants to insist upon this rule, then all Rembrandts should be returned to the Netherlands. I bet that 99.99999% of our collections "rightfully belong" to somebody else. There is an unfortunate tendency to counterpose "Western society" with the rest of the world ( the former being greedy, materialistic and imperialistic whereas the latter being uniformly labelled as spiritual, environmetally sensitive and possessing deep wisdom). Balderdash! Any society curious enogh about other cultures and rich/powerful enough to acqure artefacts , did it with gusto! Turkish museums are filled with European trophies including the sword of Stefan cel Mare . The Russian Tsars built the Hermitage for their acquisitions, and our Nihon-to colleagues salivate at night over their Koto katanas taken to the US by veterans of WWII. Japanese, in exchange, buy Van Goghs. Taiwanese museums are filled with the goods from China taken there by Chang Kai-shek (those that were not, were destroyed during the Cultural Revolution by Mao's goons). Objects of art from any culture were sold, re-sold, taken af war trophies, stolen and found innumerable times over the centuries. Our only hope to see them preserved 1000 years from now is to place them in professional museums, not to surrender them to their tribal shamans. Had it not been for the Western museums, most ethnographic artefacts would have beed destroyed, lost and damaged by the elements in their natural habitats. These Kenyan sticks would have rotted long ago had they stayed with the tribal witch doctors. If a creator society wants, they can borrow the artifacts from other museums. But the idea that all Nigerian swords belong to Lagos, all Michelangelos to Rome, all Russian icons to Moscow and all statues of Buddha to Bangkok strikes me as absurd.